Games with randomness before decisions

[Asmor]

A while back, someone on BoardGameGeek, someone I don't remember brought up a distinction that I've found rather revelatory.

The idea was that there were two distinct forms of randomness in games; randomness which occurs before you act and limits the decisions you can make, and randomness which occurs after you act and decides the outcome of the decisions you make.

To give an example of the former, take Carcassonne. In Carcassonne, on your turn you draw a random tile. This tile limits what you could potentially do. However, you can do with it as you wish.

As an example of the latter, we can use Risk. You decide what you're going to do, then roll dice to determine the outcome.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Yahtzee is a great example of both; you need to make decisions based on what you've already rolled, but then the outcome of your decisions is also a matter of fate.

But anyway, this is all just background. The meat of my question is this: to the best of my knowledge, most RPGs are examples of randomness after decisions, to decide outcome (for the purpose of this discussion, ignore RPGs without any random/luck factors). The only thing I can really think of that bucks the trend is Fiasco, and then only in character creation. You roll dice at the beginning and use those dice to assign attributes. As far as the actual randomization in game, though, you end up rolling the dice you've collected to determine an outcome for your character.

Are there any RPGs where the structure of play is such that some sort of random element is introduced, and then you get to make a decision where you're assured of the outcome?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

What you are talking about is sometimes called "fortune at the end" versus "fortune at the beginning".

I don't recall off the top of my head any RPG that uses fortune at the end heavily, though there are a few instances in games. The first one that springs to mind is any game with a heavily random but then some choices character generation, such as Basis D&D: Roll your 3d6 in order, then decide what character you are going to play. If you get to roll 4d6, drop lowest, then arrange to suit--then obviously a bit more so.

However, there are many traditional games that lend themselves to "fortune in the middle." This is the way our group plays most traditional games. You state your intent (locking in the broad parameters of what you want to try). Then you roll (fortune in the middle). Then you narrate the results consistent with that roll. The roll is broadly determining success/failure, but being able to narrate afterwards can change the course of what that success/failure means.

 

[LostSoul]

Are there any RPGs where the structure of play is such that some sort of random element is introduced, and then you get to make a decision where you're assured of the outcome?

I can't think of anything off-hand. You're talking about character actions and not situation generation, right? Because random tables that generate situation (eg. wandering monsters, random terrain features) could fit into the second category.

"Fear" rolls might act like this, but the outcome isn't assured.

I'm not sure that players can make decisions after the outcome is assured. Maybe if your decision is to determine the amount and kind of resources you want to trade? That might work.

Anyway, it made me think of this: anyway: A quick IIEE primer, by request

 

[Mark CMG]

However, there are many traditional games that lend themselves to "fortune in the middle." This is the way our group plays most traditional games. You state your intent (locking in the broad parameters of what you want to try). Then you roll (fortune in the middle). Then you narrate the results consistent with that roll. The roll is broadly determining success/failure, but being able to narrate afterwards can change the course of what that success/failure means.

This is just what I'm doing with Griffins & Grottos. It happens during character creation, during advancement, and during game play. Players are very much in control of what leads up to any die rolling and get to deal with the consequences in roleplaying ways after the fact (or allow the GM to do so and merely assist in the narration). It's very freeform in a great number of ways though it is somewhat tempered by setting, which is the province of the GM of course. It's primarily set as a Medieval Fantasy system so a player cannot simply decide that they are inventing firearms (unless the GM wishes to adapt his setting in that way).

 

[Dausuul]

In D&D, rolling initiative is one example of this. A better one is the crusader class from the "Book of Nine Swords." Crusaders start combat with a couple of randomly selected powers ready for use, and each round they "draw" another one, like cards from a deck (in fact I believe the suggested method was to make physical cards for the powers and draw one per round). I didn't much like the end result, but I think that had more to do with the quasi-Vancian, "use it and lose it" aspect of the system.

A really good example of this mechanic is card games. Take "Magic: The Gathering." Once you draw your card, the rest of the game is deterministic*. You don't roll any dice in combat or use any other random element--pit one monster against another and you know ahead of time what the result will be. But what monsters you have to throw into combat are luck of the draw.

I've thought about trying to work something like this into an RPG. Just as an example, you could have fighter maneuvers where you roll each round to see which maneuvers you're in a position to use. So if you roll a 6, maybe you spot an opening to deliver a killing blow, but if you roll a 1, none of your enemies is giving you a clear shot and you have to make do with a regular attack, or something.

[size=-2]*Well, mostly. A few cards have coin flips, "clash" mechanics, etc. And the distinction gets hazy when you use a card to draw more cards--is that random before or random after?[/size]

 

[Reynard]

A good example is the super hero RPG Brave New World. Technically, it's a mix, because you decide first, but once you have chosen to, for example, punch a bad guy, the result of your "attack roll" provide a number of successes which you spend to determine the exact effect. With three successes, frex, you might spend one for normal damage, another to knock the target down and the third for a special "trick" you purchased like breaking the enemy's weapon.

The core BNW system had a lot of potential. We even considered doing a full scale Exalted conversion but could never muster the wherewithal.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Reynard, your reply reminds me that MRQ II has a fortune in the middle combat system, with the critical decisions waited towards the end.

You pick your target and weapon/spell to use, then roll to hit. The better your success, the more special effects you get to apply (e.g. disarm, impale). And unlike earlier version of RQ, you get to pick afterwards, though based on the type of weapon and the amount of success.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The original Stormbringer and Traveller both had elements of randomness that preceded decisionmaking (or mixed with it) during character creation.

 

[ACreepierFolklaw]

I study a fighting type of taijichuan here in china, and most frequently the IRL moves consist of a simultaneous attack and defend, of course as this is most capable of dealing with an unpredictable opponent. I’ve been trying to think of a way to implement this fighting style into my adventures for a while, and perhaps this that you describe could go some way towards it. That the players roll first, then choose how to spend the points between attack and defending rolls… still needs some work to factor in modifiers etc. but I think it could work.

 

[amerigoV]

Dragon Age does a bit of this. There is some randomness in the character creation (backgrounds). Also, when you attempt to do something, if you roll doubles (you roll 3d6), there are some options that open up depending on the roll of the Dragon Die (one of the 3d6 you rolled). Box set 1 had combat manuevers and spell manuevers. Set 2 expendand the concept to exploration and social rolls.

The randomness was (1) did you get one of these special options? and (2) the Dragon die basically determined how many points you got to spend on these options (you might do one really cool move, or a couple of less powerful ones).