Newbie Question on Skill Challenges

[airwalkrr]

Maybe this is a simple question that I just can't find the answer to because I am overlooking some minor detail. If so, forgive me.

When running a skill challenge, can a skill be re-used?

And as a sub-question, if a skill can be re-used, what are the conditions, if any?

Can a skill be re-used by the same player?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a failure?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a success?

I've read the DMG over a few times on this and it seems there really isn't much mention of re-using skills and whether it can be done or not. I've seen different DMs do it differently. Some allow it under any circumstance. Some allow it only if the skill hasn't been successful once before. Some allow it only if it is a different character.

It seems to me the most balanced approach is to allow each character one chance to use each skill until that skill is successful, then the character has to use a different skill from that point on, but it doesn't prevent other characters from using that skill. This way a player can't just keep rolling his highest skill over an over. Thus, the first round of successes should be relatively easy to attain as players naturally try to find ways to use their best skills, but as those skills garner the group successes each player has to fall back on less-relied-upon skills and the danger of a failure increases. Do I have this right or not?

Edit: As a secondary question, should players be informed ahead of time which skills are considered primary and secondary? Should they also be informed of the DCs? Should they also be informed when new skills in a challenge have been unlocked? How much of this information should the players be expected to guess at?

 

[OnlineDM]

Short answer: It's all up to the DM.

In my own adventures, I tend to run skill challenges more as scenes. For an example, look at page 9 of my Stolen Staff adventure. Each scene requires just one or two skill checks, and then it's over. The DM can pick and choose which scenes to run, but this works just as well in cases where the scene is more linear.

I like skill challenges where each skill check, success or failure, changes the state of the adventure. Then it becomes obvious whether the same skill will be useful again, or whether a PC can act again.

The one exception I make is for in-combat skill challenges. See the in-combat skill challenge on page 18 of my Descent Into Darkness adventure. In that skill challenge, you can have a single PC working with the same skill turn after turn, or multiple PCs alternating with the same or different skills.

If you have a static skill challenge like, "Climb the Mountain. 4 successes before 3 failures. Primary skills: Athletics, Nature, Perception. Secondary skills: Dungeoneering, Endurance." Well, that's a lame skill challenge, in my opinion. I'm one of those DMs who doesn't like to announce "You're in a skill challenge; here are the relevant skills." I prefer to say, "Okay, here's the situation you're in. What do you want to do?"

If the players are at a total loss, I might offer suggestions. "Well, you could try to sneak past the sleeping goblins with Stealth if you like, or you could try to run past them with Athletics or Endurance..." If the player says, "Can I use Perception?" I'll say, "Sure, you can try to take a close look at which goblins are sleeping lightly and make the Stealth check a little easier." But I won't say, "X is a primary skill. Y is a secondary skill. Roll some dice."

 

[the Jester]

It depends on the skill challenge, but I default to "yes".

Sometimes subsequent uses of the same skill get harder.

Sometimes the skill challenge includes multiple phases- first build a boat, then navigate the rapids, then survive on the giant lake until you reach shore- and each phase has different uses for each skill in each phase, or even different skills available during that phase.

I also try to allow off the wall, cool ideas. If, for instance, the pcs are building the boat above and the skill challenge calls for Athletics, Nature or Thievery, but the pc comes up with a way to apply his Religion because he worships the god of the sea, then I'll go for it. (Usually once.)

 

[Quickleaf]

Maybe this is a simple question that I just can't find the answer to because I am overlooking some minor detail. If so, forgive me.

When running a skill challenge, can a skill be re-used?

And as a sub-question, if a skill can be re-used, what are the conditions, if any?

Can a skill be re-used by the same player?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a failure?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a success?

It depends on your setup; the idea that there is a one size fits all format for a "skill challenge" really doesn't reflect how these things run at the table.

Btw DMG 2 does a much better job with skill challenges and gets into different ways to design them.

I've read the DMG over a few times on this and it seems there really isn't much mention of re-using skills and whether it can be done or not. I've seen different DMs do it differently. Some allow it under any circumstance. Some allow it only if the skill hasn't been successful once before. Some allow it only if it is a different character.

Maybe it has more to do with the circumstances of the adventure/quest than the DM? I don't know, just throwing out the possibility.

But you're right that the DMG's presentation of skill challenges is minimal, fairly unclear, and undeveloped. At least that seems to be the consensus in my group, my FLGS, and on ENWorld.

It seems to me the most balanced approach is to allow each character one chance to use each skill until that skill is successful, then the character has to use a different skill from that point on, but it doesn't prevent other characters from using that skill. This way a player can't just keep rolling his highest skill over an over. Thus, the first round of successes should be relatively easy to attain as players naturally try to find ways to use their best skills, but as those skills garner the group successes each player has to fall back on less-relied-upon skills and the danger of a failure increases. Do I have this right or not?

Why in the narrative is repeating use of a skill impossible? Answer that question, then what you've proposed is a good solution.

Edit: As a secondary question, should players be informed ahead of time which skills are considered primary and secondary? Should they also be informed of the DCs? Should they also be informed when new skills in a challenge have been unlocked? How much of this information should the players be expected to guess at?

For the most part I've abandons secondary skills in skill challenges, for the same reason Aid Another is rarely used in combat. Players want to do cool stuff and get rewarded for it, and supporting an ally to look cool either is a side benefit or appeals only to a smaller segment of gamers.

As far as how transparent your skill challenges are, that's subjective. I find that saying "easy" and "hard" (implying the corresponding level appropriate DCs from Rules Compendium) are good enough clues. More and more I find myself using medium DCs and only occasionally having outlier easy/hard checks. One interesting skill challenge I ran (a horseback chase/race) let the players decide how much risk they took (I.e. Define their own DCs) with corresponding level of reward. I actually liked that because it drew the players a little more intothe narrative while making the rules (mostly) transparent.

 

[CroBob]

I would have to agree with the people who say they integrate the skill challenges into the overall RPing of the game. When a player can't distinguish between just RPing and a skill challenge, you've done your job.

 

[delericho]

When running a skill challenge, can a skill be re-used?

And as a sub-question, if a skill can be re-used, what are the conditions, if any?

Can a skill be re-used by the same player?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a failure?

Can a skill be re-used if a previous attempt was a success?

The default answer to all of these is "yes, a skill can be reused".

However, you'll generally get a more satisfying Challenge if you put in more work to the challenge than is suggested by the DMG's "X successes before Y failures" pattern. As others have noted, the DMG2 provides a lot of useful advice, as does the SWSE book "Galaxy of Intrigue".

Unfortunately, trying to give guidance on how it should be done is extremely difficult, since every Challenge is (or should be) unique. However, try to consider how you would expect the Challenge to be solved: are there distinct steps that need to be performed in order? (If so, break the Challenge into 'phases', and offer different skills for each.) Are there any skills that just have to be included, such as Survival for surviving in a desert? (If so, require at least some successes to come from these skills.) Is there a point where a genuine team effort is required, such as if they're putting on a play? (If so, consider a "group check", where everyone rolls the same skill, and if the majority pass then they get a success.)

And, yes, in general you will get a better Challenge if you limit the number of times a given skill can be tried; otherwise the party may well just stand back and let their specialist spam that one skill.

Edit: As a secondary question, should players be informed ahead of time which skills are considered primary and secondary? Should they also be informed of the DCs? Should they also be informed when new skills in a challenge have been unlocked? How much of this information should the players be expected to guess at?

In my experience, Skill Challenges are usually most satisfying if the DM doesn't even tell the group that they're in a Challenge. So, you should just describe the situation, let them act, and quietly track success and failure behind the screen. As the situation changes, you should narrate those changes; clever players will pick up on the cues and use the new skills.

I would also ditch the "primary and secondary skills" thing. These can be useful as a prep-tool, but in play they can essentially railroad the Challenge. A better approach is to let the PCs direct the action, and decide at the time whether what they're trying is 'primary' (and so can give a success in the Challenge) or 'secondary' (and so is good for a +2 bonus on the next check).

 

[Radiating Gnome]

In the basic skill challenge rules, skills can be reused, but if you have a reason why it doesn't make sense or you want to try not allowing reuse, that's up to you, as others have said.

I want to take a slightly different tack from the suggestions that skill challenges should always be invisible to the players: I think that sometimes that can be very cool, and especially when it comes to social skill challenges, you don't want the players thinking more about the skills and the dice than you do the story and the RP situation, so keeping the skill challenge mechanics out of sight can be a very good option.

However, there are a lot of cases where the structure and mechanics can add a lot to an encounter. A lot -- and I mean a whole lot -- depends upon your game group and it's culture. I play with min-maxing combat junkies, mostly, and they want to understand the rules of a scene so they can win, even when it isn't combat. More RP-invested groups are probably not interested in that kind of gamesmanship, and would not enjoy the same sort of skill challenges.

Having said that, the one think you usually want to try to avoid no matter what sort of skill challenge you're setting up, would be just rolling the same skill check, over and over, with no change, no choices, no more engagement that hoping for a high role.

IMO, the thing that is most important to keep in mind when you're creating skill challenges is choices. If you can construct a challenge that gives players choices to make that are interesting and engaging, you've created a good challenge --whether they can see the mechanics or not. When I say choices, I don't mean picking a skill they have a high bonus for -- that's not a choice, is just comparing numbers. Give them interesting options like spending healing surges for improved results (or easier checks), the option to make a tougher skill check to allow an ally to make an easier one, ways to spend other resources, different approaches to the same problem, etc. Better choice options in this vein are choices that build on interactions between characters -- it's one thing to pick the skill that your character is best at, it's an entirely different one to use that skill but select to try for a harder DC to make that same skill check easier for one of your allies, etc.

When I have the time, I like to build each skill challenge from the ground up, and it's important to really understand that every element of the challenge is changeable to fit your situation: maybe they need 8 successes, but since there's a time limit there's no need for failing after a number of failed checks. Maybe there are varied grades of success, too -- the PCs might be able to earn a minor success, but then the DCs go up as they try to turn the minor success into a greater one. Maybe they can make skill checks to erase failed checks. Maybe they can burn daily powers or healing surges or action points or some other limited resource to gain advantages in their DCs, or double the number of successes earned in a single roll. It's all fair game, all changeable to fit the needs of your situation.

And you're only really doing it wrong if it isn't fun for your players.

-rg