What is good for D&D as a game vs. what is good for the company that makes it

[ExploderWizard]

This confuses me though. Setting aside the edition change for a bit, since it's still hypothetical at the moment, how does the electronic delivery method decide what rules are in play at your table?

Isn't that like saying if I buy every book for a system, the company is deciding what rules I use?

I guess I'm just not really seeing it. I'm playing in a Dark Sun campaign right now. So, when I load up the CB, I click the Dark Sun tab and I get all the Dark Sun options. If I want to run a custom game, I simply don't use the options that are presented.

What difference does it make if the group is getting the rules from a website or from the books at the table. They are the same rules?

And, before you talk about homebrew rules, we've currently added a Wounding system to the game based on the disease rules. Yup, we have to track it ourselves. But, so what? That's no different than it ever was. If I'm using Arduin Grimoire critical hits tables in D&D, I still need that book on the table and the D&D books aren't going to help me in the slightest.

Everything is cool and peachy.......so long as the rules system that supports your Dark Sun game is still in place on the WOTC side.

What if you are still enjoying your campaign and 5E replaces 4E? Everything that made the electronic content useful for your campaign has been replaced with Folgers crystals.

Sure you can continue playing whatever you like offline and decide everything about the game but to partake in the subscription content means updating to latest OS if you want the toys.

Service subscription means forced obsolescence. If you primarily get your content from a place that you do not control then you either change content when told or start getting your content via some other means.

 

[Hussar]

Given that D&D involves planning a character for the future, "constant updating" isn't necessarily a good thing. The other problem with subscriptions (for a consumer) is that you're paying for something before you get it. I do not buy D&D books (or most things) without thoroughly evaluating them first. It puts pressure on a company to constantly produce a high volume of quality products, while a subscription model encourages them to do things to attract subscribers, who will then likely remain subscribers even if they are later charged a higher price or given lower quality (or quantity of) material.

The OGL has simply raised the standard, making it more difficult for rpg companies. I now expect free, high-quality material to be available online at any time in a user-friendly format. I expect to pay money only for something that I have already determined is worth buying due to its usefulness at the table. This is how 3.X worked (and now PF, which releases most of its stuff open and still sells books pretty well). Similarly, I would quit watching anything on Hulu if they charged for it (regardless of how much), and I would not watch the same material in other formats. When I can have free, quality, material in any arena, why would I settle for less? Subscriptions are less, because nothing is free.

Subscriptions are good for some things, but not for rpgs. Keep in mind that I was never saying that the edition cycle was great, I was saying that rpgs are a young hobby and that the ideal business model for them (if such a thing even exists) has not yet been found.

I'd say you missed the point. Without a subscription model, you'd get no Adventure Paths from Pathfinder. An AP would cost WAY too much money for Paizo to put it out in a traditional format. The online tools in the DDI cannot exist side by side with the OGL for exactly the reason you state:

If you put OGL in an electronic format, someone else can simply copy what you've done and present it for free. The tool isn't the value, the information that the tool accesses is. If the information is 100% free, then the tool will never make any money.

There's a reason Itunes makes buckets of money. If copyright didn't exist, Itunes would vanish in an instant. But, because of copyright, information is not free, and Itunes can flourish. Itunes itself isn't worth anything.

DDI, in and of itself, isn't really worth anything. But, the information that it accesses in the format that it does, is judged as being of value.

I think most people who subscribe to something like the DDI or Pathfinder realize that a large amount of the information they get will not be of much value. But, the information that is used is judged as being worth enough to justify the payments.

The traditional model of continuously selling books to smaller and smaller markets just won't survive. This isn't just RPG gaming. EVERY book publisher is facing the same thing. There's a reason that Asimov's, for example, is now an online magazine. Traditional delivery models are complicated and complicated is expensive.

Given the size of the industry, expecting a traditional model is unrealistic. When book publishers are going more and more to online sub models - Marvel Comics? DC comics? (both of which are a HELL of a lot bigger than RPG gaming) - it's totally unrealistic to expect that RPG's will be able to carry on as if it's still 1987.

You might be able to get away with it if you go with the luxury model, such as someone like Subterranean Press does. But, are you willing to spend $140 dollars on a single RPG book?

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'd say you missed the point. Without a subscription model, you'd get no Adventure Paths from Pathfinder. An AP would cost WAY too much money for Paizo to put it out in a traditional format. The online tools in the DDI cannot exist side by side with the OGL for exactly the reason you state:

If you put OGL in an electronic format, someone else can simply copy what you've done and present it for free. The tool isn't the value, the information that the tool accesses is. If the information is 100% free, then the tool will never make any money.

There's a reason Itunes makes buckets of money. If copyright didn't exist, Itunes would vanish in an instant. But, because of copyright, information is not free, and Itunes can flourish. Itunes itself isn't worth anything.

Paizo has successfully utilized a subscription service by making it optional, for people who really want the "fluff" as well as the game itself. It's true that the company would not make money without its subscribers, but it's also true that if they had not done a free open playtest and a PRD of completed rules there would not have been much interest in their game to attract tose subscribers in the first place. People were drawn to that.

D&D is rather different from the music industry and Itunes because the books are not the end product. D&D is something you do with friends; the books are merely a helpful aid to create the game. Sure without copyright Itunes would die out, but if anyone somehow copyrighted the "rules" we need to produce music ourselves that would not be tolerated by the public.

I think most people who subscribe to something like the DDI or Pathfinder realize that a large amount of the information they get will not be of much value. But, the information that is used is judged as being worth enough to justify the payments.

I agree with that conclusion. However, I also think that most people who play those games are not subscribers, and I think the exclusivity of the DDI model (i.e. you need to pay something to get any version of the rules in any format) has alienated a lot of customers, which in business is generally bad. PF has a buy-in option for those who want it (like Hulu Plus), and their products are apparently good enough to attract enough subscribers to allow the rest of us to play frugally.

The traditional model of continuously selling books to smaller and smaller markets just won't survive. This isn't just RPG gaming. EVERY book publisher is facing the same thing. There's a reason that Asimov's, for example, is now an online magazine. Traditional delivery models are complicated and complicated is expensive.

Given the size of the industry, expecting a traditional model is unrealistic. When book publishers are going more and more to online sub models - Marvel Comics? DC comics? (both of which are a HELL of a lot bigger than RPG gaming) - it's totally unrealistic to expect that RPG's will be able to carry on as if it's still 1987.

You might be able to get away with it if you go with the luxury model, such as someone like Subterranean Press does. But, are you willing to spend $140 dollars on a single RPG book?

I don't know what the rpg industry looked like in 1987-that was the year I turned 2. That said, again I agree that releasing a set of core books and then a series of ever more specific supplements is a problematic business model that is only going to get worse. I wouldn't pay $140 for an rpg book. I wouldn't even pay $30 anymore. I haven't in a while. I don't know that physical books are worth the money anymore. Does that mean that an rpg company should consider me and my OGL brethren as being irrelevant, or that they should be thinking about how to be competitive enough to convince me to spend money on their products?

 

[Hussar]

I don't know what the rpg industry looked like in 1987-that was the year I turned 2. That said, again I agree that releasing a set of core books and then a series of ever more specific supplements is a problematic business model that is only going to get worse. I wouldn't pay $140 for an rpg book. I wouldn't even pay $30 anymore. I haven't in a while. I don't know that physical books are worth the money anymore. Does that mean that an rpg company should consider me and my OGL brethren as being irrelevant, or that they should be thinking about how to be competitive enough to convince me to spend money on their products?

Yes, it absolutely does. If you aren't willing to buy product except at a price point that is unsustainable then you are not a customer that anyone is going to try to convince. Why would they? Convincing you to be a customer means that they go out of business because they cannot possibly provide the content level you require at the price point you want.

Additionally, you have the cart before the horse. Pathfinder made the Adventure Paths before the system came out. It's because of the strength of the Pathfinder subscriptions that you got a Pathfinder system. They did an open playtest because that's a great way to attract an audience for their product.

But, make no mistake, Paizo's money maker is the subscriptions. That's what they are counting on down the road to pay the rent. Boom, bust cycles on core rules is a very, very bad business model. The subscriptions provide a stable, steady, and probably most importantly predictable source of income. For any business that's serious about staying in business, predictable sources of income trump pretty much anything else.

The "frugal" player is not a customer. They don't care if you play or not. Why would they? You don't give them any money. It's not in there interest to cater to you in the slightest. That you might prefer product A or B doesn't even register in their decision making process. The fact that you have voted with your wallet takes you out of any decision making processes.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The "frugal" player is not a customer. They don't care if you play or not. Why would they? You don't give them any money. It's not in there interest to cater to you in the slightest. That you might prefer product A or B doesn't even register in their decision making process. The fact that you have voted with your wallet takes you out of any decision making processes.

I am not sure I agree here. One of the biggest sales drivers of any game is people actually playing the thing. Most groups I play are made up mostly of frugal gamers with one or two people who buy every book they can. You still want the frugal gamers playing your game if you are a game company. They help drive sales and they still buy things like the PHB. Personally I pay just as much attention to our frugal customers as I do to our customers who buy every book we put out.

Yes, it absolutely does. If you aren't willing to buy product except at a price point that is unsustainable then you are not a customer that anyone is going to try to convince. Why would they? Convincing you to be a customer means that they go out of business because they cannot possibly provide the content level you require at the price point you want.

I think what we are seeing is that the big business model of RPGs is becoming less and less viable (it is very hard to sustain a company producing RPGs). I got burned out on the 3E model of buying three core books, followed by a series of must0have supps. I really think the older model that targets the GM rather than players is where things need to go. The present model burns your customers out (IMO). I don't want to buy a new edition every few years and I don't want to buy a book every month or so just to stay current with an edition.

I honestly think we will see a shift toward settings, modules and non-essential supplements with 5E (and I think this is the smart move). They need a product line that can last under one edition for a long time, that wont grow to the point of bursting. You can always make more modules; you can't keep making PHBs and Splat books forever.

 

[billd91]

But, make no mistake, Paizo's money maker is the subscriptions. That's what they are counting on down the road to pay the rent. Boom, bust cycles on core rules is a very, very bad business model. The subscriptions provide a stable, steady, and probably most importantly predictable source of income. For any business that's serious about staying in business, predictable sources of income trump pretty much anything else.

I don't think anyone's going to really dispute that subscriptions are Paizo's stable money-maker. But there are different sorts of subscriptions that have different implications for the hobby. Paizo offers pretty much all of its products via a subscription, but once you've gotten the materials, they are yours. Period. There's no ongoing cost to having access to them. Paizo continues to offer some service for them, in the form of updates to the PDF versions of the materials, but no further subscription needs to be maintained for that to occur.

A subscription model for rules that relies on an online tool for access, access that is lost with the end of a subscription, is a very different animal. Can any of you be certain that WotC will provide a set of downloadable rules or have a downloadable format for the rules as they are in the DDI so that players can keep playing 4e once WotC no longer supports the 4e online world? What does this mean for the ultimate longevity of 4e once other editions have come down the pike? I suspect it won't last as long as 1e, 2e, or even 3x after it's out of print unless WotC continues to devote resources to it. Frankly, I don't see them doing that more than a few years after the next edition transition. What will happen to the 4e fans? Will they transition to using the print books and keep playing 4e? Will they move forward with new edition? Will they drift to other games?

 

[Hussar]

I am not sure I agree here. One of the biggest sales drivers of any game is people actually playing the thing. Most groups I play are made up mostly of frugal gamers with one or two people who buy every book they can. You still want the frugal gamers playing your game if you are a game company. They help drive sales and they still buy things like the PHB. Personally I pay just as much attention to our frugal customers as I do to our customers who buy every book we put out.

But, that's the point. With a subscription model, the game is no longer driven by sales of the PHB. Who cares how many PHB's (or Pathfinder for that matter) you sell? It's having those guys that give you your money every month that is keeping you in business.

I think what we are seeing is that the big business model of RPGs is becoming less and less viable (it is very hard to sustain a company producing RPGs). I got burned out on the 3E model of buying three core books, followed by a series of must0have supps. I really think the older model that targets the GM rather than players is where things need to go. The present model burns your customers out (IMO). I don't want to buy a new edition every few years and I don't want to buy a book every month or so just to stay current with an edition.

I honestly think we will see a shift toward settings, modules and non-essential supplements with 5E (and I think this is the smart move). They need a product line that can last under one edition for a long time, that wont grow to the point of bursting. You can always make more modules; you can't keep making PHBs and Splat books forever.

But, that's not the present model. The present model is you spend your 7 bucks a month to get access to everything. If you want to actually buy the book, go ahead and there's stuff there to make you happy. OTOH, you don't have to do that and you can play with all the stuff in that book without actually buying it.

I don't think anyone's going to really dispute that subscriptions are Paizo's stable money-maker. But there are different sorts of subscriptions that have different implications for the hobby. Paizo offers pretty much all of its products via a subscription, but once you've gotten the materials, they are yours. Period. There's no ongoing cost to having access to them. Paizo continues to offer some service for them, in the form of updates to the PDF versions of the materials, but no further subscription needs to be maintained for that to occur.

A subscription model for rules that relies on an online tool for access, access that is lost with the end of a subscription, is a very different animal. Can any of you be certain that WotC will provide a set of downloadable rules or have a downloadable format for the rules as they are in the DDI so that players can keep playing 4e once WotC no longer supports the 4e online world? What does this mean for the ultimate longevity of 4e once other editions have come down the pike? I suspect it won't last as long as 1e, 2e, or even 3x after it's out of print unless WotC continues to devote resources to it. Frankly, I don't see them doing that more than a few years after the next edition transition. What will happen to the 4e fans? Will they transition to using the print books and keep playing 4e? Will they move forward with new edition? Will they drift to other games?

Oh, I totally understand that they are different models. I'm not trying to say that they are the same. Although, while I cannot guarantee anything, obviously, it seems to me that it would cost them nothing to keep 4e in legacy mode for the duration of the DDI, regardless of edition. They don't need to provide any support. Move on to 5e, put a tab on the DDI to switch between editions and off you go. It costs them bandwidth and that's it. It's not like they have to go back and input all the material from an entire edition into a format that that edition wasn't created in. 4e is already in the DDI.

Sure, they might turn it off, but, why? So long as people continue to subscribe to the DDI, why would they possibly care what edition you're playing?

My entire point though, wasn't about one subscription model vs another. It was subscription model vs traditional book model. Both Paizo and WOTC have gone to a subscription model for their business. There's a very, very good reason for this (actually, there are several) and hoping that we'll go back to providing print material in book format sold through traditional distribution chains is just dreaming.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But, that's the point. With a subscription model, the game is no longer driven by sales of the PHB. Who cares how many PHB's (or Pathfinder for that matter) you sell? It's having those guys that give you your money every month that is keeping you in business.

Sure, but most people I know don't want to pay a monthly fee to their favorite game company. I know I don't. I buy the books that appeal to me. I don't want to be locked into a subscription service.

If they find this subscription service works after several years, more power to them, but they do risk losing customers not interested in buying a book each month (and those are often the people who are the lifeblood of the game because they play just as much as the people who buy books all the time).

I am just saying going after the frugal guy is still important.

But, that's not the present model. The present model is you spend your 7 bucks a month to get access to everything. If you want to actually buy the book, go ahead and there's stuff there to make you happy. OTOH, you don't have to do that and you can play with all the stuff in that book without actually buying it.

For books sales that is the model WOTC is presently using. I am still not sold on the online subscription model, but I consider that a different animal, and I don't believe that WOTC has shifted over 100% to that model yet.

 

[billd91]

Oh, I totally understand that they are different models. I'm not trying to say that they are the same. Although, while I cannot guarantee anything, obviously, it seems to me that it would cost them nothing to keep 4e in legacy mode for the duration of the DDI, regardless of edition. They don't need to provide any support. Move on to 5e, put a tab on the DDI to switch between editions and off you go. It costs them bandwidth and that's it. It's not like they have to go back and input all the material from an entire edition into a format that that edition wasn't created in. 4e is already in the DDI.

4e may be in DDI, but what happens when the code needs maintenance? I can assure you it will. I expect it will require more maintenance in the long term than keeping a few directories of e-books/PDFs from past editions for sale. How long will they do it when they can expect the return on investment to decline over time?

Sure, they might turn it off, but, why? So long as people continue to subscribe to the DDI, why would they possibly care what edition you're playing?

Hey, they found a reason to not continue to sell 3e materials despite low maintenance costs, didn't they? And, no, I don't believe for an instant that the primary reason was piracy. I can't see why the logic behind pulling previous edition PDFs would really change.

 

[Mallus]

I don't understand exactly how you can discuss what's good for the game without talking about what's good for individual groups and players.

As far as I can tell, the most relevant data we have is people's buying/playing habits.

Currently, people are buying, in varying perentages, 4e, 3e/Pathfinder, and older D&D/retroclones, which represent at least 3, if not more, different rules frameworks for creating the D&D experience.

So that's what's good for D&D. That's what's meeting the audience's needs.

I can't help but think the phrase "what's good for D&D" really means is "what's good for me and way I like to play D&D".

It's an implied call not for a change in the official rules, but for a change in what the D&D audience wants from the rules (which at this point includes several fairly divergent, if not contradictory, things).

We already know what's good for the game, using the only meaningful metric; it's what we're purchasing, supporting and most importantly, playing right now.