Shooting or Throwing Into Melee

[Water Bob]

Never went with if miss by 4 you hit the target.

Unless I'm reading the rule wrong (pg. 24 DMG), the second half of it is screwy and bad game mechanics. The first part about cover, I think, is simple and easy to use.





Instead of what I use above, maybe this would work better, easier.

If you're throwing into melee (Frank is fighting an Orc), resolve the attack as if you were throwing at your while not in melee.

But, count a success only if the attack throw is 4 points higher than what is normally needed.

If the attack throw is at least 4 points higher, then you hit your target (the Orc).

If the attack throw hits but is not 4 points higher, then you may have hit someone else in the melee. Simply compare your attack throw to the AC of the other combatant to see if a hit is scored. Randomly roll for the secondary target if more than two combatants participates in the melee.





This sounds more complicated than it is, so I'll give you an example.

Frank (AC 15) is fighting an Orc (AC 12), and you are throwing a javelin at the Orc as the Orc fights your buddy Frank in melee.

You throw, and your attack is a total of 9. You miss everybody because we're looking for a 12+ (what you need to hit the Orc).

Next round, you throw, and you score a 13. You have to roll 4 points above the target number to hit the Orc (that's the -4 penalty), but you may have hit Frank. A quick check shows that your roll of 13 does not hit Frank's AC 15, thus we move on. Nobody hit.

Third round, you pick up yet another javelin and throw again at the
Orc. This time, you roll a 19. The Orc's AC is 12, and you need to roll 4 points over that to hit him. You did, so you finally hit the Orc.

But, the Orc doesn't die. Fourth round, you pick up your last javelin and toss it into the melee. You score a 15. You need 4 points over the Orc's AC 12 to hit the Orc, which is a 16+. You don't hit the Orc, but you may have hit Frank. You compare your roll, a 15, to Frank's AC 15, and you see that you do, indeed, hit Frank this last time.





EDIT: Upon review this, I don't like it.

What's easiest, I think, is to just roll a second attack against Frank if the Orc is missed.

You shoot and you hit. But, if you miss, you have a chance to hit Frank.

Maybe use a negative...or don't use all your bonuses, because you're not trying to hit Frank? You're aiming somewhere else.

Or...we go back to my original, flat 20% chance that Frank is hit if the Orc is missed.

Still thinking...but I think I like that original idea right now.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I'm not totally sure how I came to this idea, but I was always under the impression that the character takes a -4 to hit into melee, and must roll a percentile (or equivalent) to see if he hits his intended target and not his friend. Higher than 20% hits the target, and 20% or lower hits the cover, assuming the attack roll itself was actually enough to break AC.

Still, it's an awkward rule. Luckily it's a variant which means it's totally optional, but it's still weird.

 

[airwalkrr]

Honestly I just get rid of the whole idea of hitting allies in combat and determining whether allies provide cover because it makes the game move faster. You can still hit an ally in a grapple with a ranged attack, but that is a simple enough matter as the rule states you just roll randomly. I usually make it a 50% chance if the targets are the same size with a +/-10% chance for each size difference. For instance a human grappling with a halfling would have a 60% chance of getting hit, while an ogre grappling with a halfling would have a 70% chance of getting hit, and so on. I set the maximum at 90%/10% so you always have a small chance of hitting an unintended target.

 

[Vegepygmy]

That's interesting. So, if you are throwing a javelin into melee where your buddy Frank (AC 16) is fighting an Orc (AC 12), and you roll a total of 21 on your attack throw, the rule is saying, even though you've got a perfectly good hit there, that you will hit Frank and not the Orc...

No, no, no...you've completely misunderstood.

The rule is that if you miss the Orc because of the +4 soft cover bonus to AC and the attack roll beats Frank's AC, you hit Frank and deal damage to him. If you miss the orc because of the +4 soft cover bonus to AC and the attack doesn't beat Frank's AC, Frank blocks your shot but you don't deal any damage to him. (Except then you're supposed to also check to see if the reason you missed Frank was because of his dodge or Dexterity bonus to AC, and if so, then you actually did hit the Orc, because Frank moved out of the way and thus didn't actually block the shot.)

"Realistic" and fair, but not at all simple.

So, for example, you throw your javelin at the Orc (normally AC 12, currently 16 because of the +4 soft cover bonus to AC). Your total attack roll is 14. You would have hit the Orc except for the +4 soft cover bonus to AC, so you miss the Orc. If Frank's AC is 14 or less, you hit and deal damage to Frank instead of the Orc. But if Frank's AC is 15 or higher because he has a Dexterity bonus to AC, then he dodged out of the way of the javelin and thus didn't provide cover to the Orc, so it gets hit anyway.

(Also note that the DMG rule addresses cover, but not the -4 penalty for shooting or throwing into melee. I guess the same reasoning would apply, though.)

What if Frank (AC 15) is fighting an Orc that is AC 14?

Then the Orc gains a +4 soft cover bonus to AC, bringing its AC to 18. If your total attack roll is 18 or better, you hit the Orc. If your total attack roll is 13 or less, you miss completely. If your total attack roll is 14-17, however, you miss the Orc due to the soft cover bonus to AC, and if your total attack roll is 15-17, you hit and deal damage to Frank instead. If your total attack roll is 14, you hit Frank but don't deal damage to him, unless Frank has a dodge or Dexterity bonus to AC, in which case he dodged the javelin and didn't provide the Orc with a soft cover bonus to AC, so the Orc was hit after all.

 

[Water Bob]

No, no, no...you've completely misunderstood.

That wouldn't be the first time...or the 11th time...

The rule is that if you miss the Orc because of the +4 soft cover bonus to AC and the attack roll beats Frank's AC, you hit Frank and deal damage to him.

Pg. 24 doesn't read like that to me, but that makes a lot more sense.

If you miss the orc because of the +4 soft cover bonus to AC and the attack doesn't beat Frank's AC, Frank blocks your shot but you don't deal any damage to him. (Except then you're supposed to also check to see if the reason you missed Frank was because of his dodge or Dexterity bonus to AC, and if so, then you actually did hit the Orc, because Frank moved out of the way and thus didn't actually block the shot.)

I read that second part that if Frank wanted to block for the Orc (as if he was protecting him), he could drop his DEX bonus and any Dodge bonus in order to make himself easier to hit.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I read that second part that if Frank wanted to block for the Orc (as if he was protecting him), he could drop his DEX bonus and any Dodge bonus in order to make himself easier to hit.

That's also true, but if Frank doesn't want to protect the Orc, he can keep his Dexterity bonus to AC, dodge the shot, and let the Orc get hit.

 

[Water Bob]

Then the Orc gains a +4 soft cover bonus to AC, bringing its AC to 18. If your total attack roll is 18 or better, you hit the Orc. If your total attack roll is 13 or less, you miss completely. If your total attack roll is 14-17, however, you miss the Orc due to the soft cover bonus to AC, and if your total attack roll is 15-17, you hit and deal damage to Frank instead. If your total attack roll is 14, you hit Frank but don't deal damage to him, unless Frank has a dodge or Dexterity bonus to AC, in which case he dodged the javelin and didn't provide the Orc with a soft cover bonus to AC, so the Orc was hit after all.

I think it's much easier to say it like this:

1: You check to see if you hit the Orc. If you did, we're done.

2: If you didn't hit the Orc, you simply check to see if the same roll hit Frank.

Done.



That's it, in a nustshell, I think.

 

[Vegepygmy]

3. If the same roll did hit Frank, check to see if it hit Frank's flat-footed AC; if not, check to see if the same roll hit the Orc without cover.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Might want to redo that. If the roll hits Frank's FF AC, but not his full AC, then it hits the Orc instead because Frank dodged the bullet so to speak.

 

[Water Bob]

3. If the same roll did hit Frank, check to see if it hit Frank's flat-footed AC; if not, check to see if the same roll hit the Orc without cover.

Why would Frank be flat-footed while in melee? Crazy rule.

Might want to redo that. If the roll hits Frank's FF AC, but not his full AC, then it hits the Orc instead because Frank dodged the bullet so to speak.

I can't use that rule, as is, with the Conan RPG, anyway, because of the way Conan treats AC. It's different from D&D.

In Conan, a character can Parry or Dodge. Modifiers for dodging are much higher than in D&D to allow a character to viably not wear any armor and still survive in combat. And, armor absorbs damage--it doesn't make a character harder to hit, as with D&D.

I don't like the rule, anyway. It's too hard to remember and not easy to use.

I'll figure something out that is easier.

I'm still liking my flat 20%, on a roll of 1-4. It's like a Crit Fumble. If you fire into melee, you hit your friend (or randomly, someone other than your target engaged in the melee) on a natural roll of 1-4.

I may stick with that.