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Monte Cook on what rules are for

The thing is, the smelly chamberlain isn't really an example of authority, but an example of various cases of assent (or non-assent).

If the GM goes along with the players, and runs with their proposal that the chamberlain smells funky, then suddenly it becomes true (and always has been). If the GM denies this, it's not true.

In other words, it isn't true at the table until everyone assents to it being true (or quits the game).

Some players may assent in most cases of disagreement because another player has been given authority (such as, a GM), but there still needs to be assent, and authority doesn't make assent automatic.

In other words, what becomes true in our shared imagined events doesn't become true simply because a rule says it is true. It becomes true because we all assent to it being true. Rules are just another form of authority.

That's the negotiation I think Vincent is talking about. It's me saying something, and everyone else nodding their head and saying, "Yes, it happens" or being like, "Nah, hold on..."
 

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...When I see Monte talking about the rules as a basis for the shared reality of the gameworld, I get the "Come and Get It should be an attack vs Will vibe". As I said above in reply to DEFCON1 I may be misreading him. But I think his examples of climb mechanics tend to push in the direction of my reading.

OK, I get where you are going with this now. Maybe some of my recent real-life experiences are coloring this too much, but I see this as a case of examples turning into rules--sometimes without the intent of the example writer. I've run into a lot of situations lately where I had information or a process to teach to a person, and expressed it with some examples, in the hopes of explaining why the 1, 2, or 3 choices I saw as viable were the best choices. The intent is to give the person enough information to make their own, good decisions--including anything that arises later or that I wasn't aware of. What they hear, however, is, "Do it like this, or that, or this third thing. Those are your choices. Pick one. You don't have to think about it."

Now I'm a pretty confident, blunt guy when the subject is something I know. But I'm not totally clueless when it comes to this dynamic, and I have made explicit efforts to get the intent in sync with the results--such as leading off and closing with, "You should do it your way. Here is how I see it. Take this and adapt it to your situation. Think about it. Do it your way." And often people still come away with, "Pick one of the choices I was given."

Yet, if you don't give examples, and keep it neutral, then people often don't understand what you intended, either. Now I procede to prove the problem by using an example that someone will misunderstand, either due to their perception or my inablility to convey it well, or both. :D

Say you have a rule in the game that is, "Do something wacky at the right time, get bonus experience." That's the whole rule; everthing else we write on it is commentary.

We can stop there. Let people be the judge of what is wacky, how much is enough to qualify, when the time is right, how much experience they get for each incident, etc. If we do a pretty good job of providing indirect examples via setting material, background, color, etc.--or maybe leverage off of a well-known and distinctive style (e.g. Warner Bros. cartoons), then maybe that is enough. They'll play the game more or less the way we intended, and thus provided rules for, or they'll adapt it to their own style easily enough.

Or we can provide explicit commentary and examples right after the rule. If we do, the worst thing (in my opinion) that we can do is provide exactly one example. People will invariably read more into the example than is intended, and elevate it to the same status as a rule. Two examples is almost as bad. By the time we get to three or more, we've nullified a lot of that problem. But now people start reading it as the defacto limits of what can be done. They won't say it that way, because it is more attitude than thought--and certainly not literal. But the examples will be taking as limits on the actions expressed in the examples. More examples will accrete. People will argue about how those examples fit in with the other examples. And pretty soon we have a thin hardback pick collecting all of the examples as "canon". :eek:

So one of my answers to that dilemma is that you need at least 3 examples, but not a ton, and that at least two of the examples have to be mutually exclusive enough that each raises doubts about the other. That is, you can't read those examples without being forcibly reminded that they are mere examples. Running around the room screaming, "Oklahoma, Oklahoma, Oklahoma," when in the game it is entirely socially unacceptable might be one example. Then making a deadpan remark, quietly, at just the right moment, becomes another. In one campaign, the former got 10 XP, and the latter got 5 XP. In another game, the former got nothing and the latter got 7 XP. There is no rule in the commentary.

I'd say that the way out of this is to label commentary and examples explicitly as such, but unfortunately, my experiences says that it isn't adequate.
 

The thing is, the smelly chamberlain isn't really an example of authority, but an example of various cases of assent (or non-assent).

<snip>

what becomes true in our shared imagined events doesn't become true simply because a rule says it is true. It becomes true because we all assent to it being true. Rules are just another form of authority.

That's the negotiation I think Vincent is talking about.
Sure.

But I think what is also being said, in the discussion of rules that I originally mentioned, is that they are meant to facilitate this process of assent, by establishing expectations about who will propose what, and who is obliged to assent to it. The comments on the Smelly Chamberlian blog bear this out - I can't remember his precise wording, but Vincent uses the idea that in certain contexts (eg when a participant is doing something that the rules say they should do) assent will be almost automatic - and not assenting is likely to raise serious social contract isssues ("Hey, we all agreed to play the game like this - what do you think you're doing?").

So if the game did have a NPC body odour chart, such that the players' secret plan in the Smelly Chamberlain case was a case of drifting, then I think this would be likely to change the social dynamic in certain ways. And, as I responded to the Jester, I think if we move from something that is typically peripheral in most games - body odour - to something that is often more central - moral/religious commitments and allegiances - then I think the interplay between authority, drifting, expectations of assent and actual assent will show up pretty obviously.

To tie this back to my OP: if the rules are gameworld-modelling style rules (of the RQ or RM sort, or the sort desired by those who say that Come and Get It should be an attack vs Will, so that the mechanical resolution of the power itself explains why it is that the assailants close on the fighter) then this generates an expectation of assent with the model in question, and imposes a cost on attempted departures from it (especially by non-GM players - at least in traditional groups, the GM is generally awarded a lot more leeway here, and some rulesets expressly confer it - for example, Rolemaster criticals specify injuries to particular body parts, but the rules say the GM may adjust these "if appropriate" eg if a leg crit is delivered to someone taking cover behind a shoulder-high wall).

Whereas HeroQuest style mechanics, which separate the method of mechanical resolution from the ingame causal process, oblige someone at the table to actively put forward a suggestion as to what actually happened in the fiction (assuming that the fiction is going to be discussed at all - let's assume that the mechanics in other respects make fictional positioning important, and therefore give the participants a reason to settle the content of the fiction). The process of resolution does not itself establish a default candidate for assent.

At least in my experience, this is not merely an abstract distinction. For examle, if we're playing D&D (any edition, I think) then - assuming no drifting - a roll of 1 on an attack die mandates assent to a description of the attack as failing to bring the opponent closer to defeat. But does it also mandate assent to a description of the attack as incompetent, or poorly aimed, or otherwise something the attacker should be ashamed rather than proud of?

The rules of every edition are silent on this point, I think - D&D has never had fumble rules. But there is a clear tendency on the part of D&D players to treat the die roll as modelling the "oomph" or skill of the attack, with a 20 being "maximum skill" and a 1 being "maximum ineptitude". Under this approach to the rules, then, 1 in 20 attacks is going to have the attacker doing something which is an instance of the maximally inept. Whereas if we treat the roll of a 1 as simply stipulating an outcome, with the fiction to then be inserted independently of the process of mechanical resolution, it becomes open to narrate the roll of 1 as the most tremendous demonstration of swordplay ever!, but matched by an equally dramatic series of parries and ripostes by the opponent.

In the "D20 roll as model" case, it is clear to me in what way the rules are providing the basis for the shared fiction: they establish a default proposition towards which assent must be given if the game is not to be drifted. In the "d20 roll as mere outcome" case, then the rules provide boundaries or parameters on the shared fiction - without drifting, there is a default expection of assent to the proposition that the attacker came no closer to defeating the defender - but the bulk of the fictional content, and in particular the ingame causal process whereby that default outcome was achieved - remains to be established more-or-less independently of the mechanics. In this latter case, only in a rather thin sense to I feel that the rules are providing the basis for the shared fiction. Most of the work is being done by assent to suggested fictional content where the main consideration is not the mechanics, but genre expectations, general table conventions, and the like.

EDIT: All of the above is probably tangential to what I suddenly realise (or feel as if I realise) is your real point - that rules can't establish the fiction, only assent can. I agree with that. But I'm also assuming (and as I indicate above I think that here I'm just following Vincent Baker) that the rules can play a significant role in establishing expectations of assent, default propositions to assent to, and so on. And I'm trying to distinguish two ways of introducing those default propositions - one which treats the game's mechanical processes as a model for the gameworld's own causal processes, and one which doesn't. And I took Monte Cook's comment to presuppose that mechanics ought to be designed to work in the first of these ways.
 
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OK, I get where you are going with this now.

<snip>

I'd say that the way out of this is to label commentary and examples explicitly as such, but unfortunately, my experiences says that it isn't adequate.
If I've read you right, you're suggesting that I'm reading Monte's comment too much in light of the examples that he gave.

That may be so.

But given that he is a one-time Rolemaster designer who went on to be a 2nd ed designer at a time it was heading strongly in a simulationist direction, and then a 3E designer, I'm not sure. I guess I've got more examples in mind than just the ones he gave in his column when I impute a meaning to his reference to the rules providing the basis for the shared fiction.
 


So D&D should be Calvin ball basically?
Huh?? No. The rules can specify any of a range of things, but, at least in the case of the core rules, they are generally not permitted to change.

Rules can specify how the game world works, or how character plans are moderated to success or failure, or who has the right to narrate the story at any time, or some combination of these, or other things entirely. What the rules specify creates "degrees of freedom" that are not fixed by the rules, but the rules themselves are (generally) static.
 


If I've read you right, you're suggesting that I'm reading Monte's comment too much in light of the examples that he gave.

That may be so.

But given that he is a one-time Rolemaster designer who went on to be a 2nd ed designer at a time it was heading strongly in a simulationist direction, and then a 3E designer, I'm not sure. I guess I've got more examples in mind than just the ones he gave in his column when I impute a meaning to his reference to the rules providing the basis for the shared fiction.

No, you may or may not be reading him correct in that regard. I'm saying that if you are, it is likely less because of his background and preferences and more because of the inherent nature of rules coupled with examples and commentary, when exposed to the class of D&D players that frequent message boards (and in fairness, people in general). :D

And I think Monte is savy enough to be aware of that problem. Heck, someone around here has a quote in their signature where he specifically addresses it: The one about rules in 3E and what the designers wrought. A solid portion (maybe even half) of the stuff written at this site about the L&L series has been complaints about some aspect of the examples or rebuttals to same.

He is saying that when they write rules, how they write them influences the way people play, outside the clear intent of the text. Then he gives examples in an article about that problem, and we collectively prove him correct. :p
 

Now I've never heard of a game breaking up over an argument about an NPC's body odour, but here is a more typical example of the same phenomenon that can and does break up games:

Player: "My guy attacks him.:

GM: "Why?"

Player: "Because he's evil and I hate evil!"

GM: "But he didn't detect evil when you cast your spell."

In the second example the ref is questioning the player's motives. That's a big no no IME. I'm not saying that questioning a player is wrong on the ref's part, but "Why" specifically isn't asked. How? Who? What? Where? When? Sure, any of those clarify the attempt. But questioning motivation leads to arguments, something best avoided (OOC at least).

Also, a player having complete control over a PC's actions is not what is happening. The player has full control of the intentions or attempts of the character, not the results. Charm Person or Dominate on a PC are just two examples long in the game where intent is further limited. The PC's "body" is in and of the world. Longer lasting effects like becoming a thrall or shifting alignment to a non-playable status can mean rolling up a new character. Not that one can't play to bring the other back of course.

As to Calvin Ball. Can anyone state definitively what is not Calvin Ball?

I'm thinking no. We could simply say something isn't, but does that really stop any play from being so anyways?

In the land of Smurfs everything is smurfed.
 

But is the purpose of the rules to form the basis of the shared reality among the participants?
It is how the scene is set. One of the most important in a combat heavy rpg is how fast and how reliably wounds heal. Without a modest chance any wound gets infected in the setting, that has HUGE repercussions on the natural world.

In our world many animals avoid getting hurt because wounds heal slowly and infection is a danger with every wound. They prance, growl and grandstand with the goal of avoiding a bloody confrontation. Those creatures that were too aggressive died off long ago. They may have killed their foe, but their wounds claimed them later.

In a D&D world, this is not the case, creatures heal very fast. In a D&D world the animal that fought until it was nearly unconscious and killed it’s prey /rival, does not die of infection form it’s open wounds, but rather will have all it’s wounds healed in just a few days. This will produce creatures that do not give warning responses, they just charge if the numbers or size is on their side.
 

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