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How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

Jimlock

Adventurer
EDIT: I'm not sure where this discussion is going; it certainly leaves the topic of this thread. If you don't like it here, say so, and I'll leave off.

It's not that I disagree with what you say... but we ARE saying different things here...

I'm sorry if I came out strong, ...and with all honesty I had/have no intention of making you leave the thread.

I value your opinion on this forum even though we seem to disagree on this one.


...When I said "I don't know were you 're going with this"... I meant it in a sense that I could not figure out the point you were trying to make in respect to the debate.

I say this because I don't think that the Illusion school is offensive or defensive... nor is detect magic.

Both the cantrip and related detection spells, as well as a large number of illusion spells (the representative/characteristic ones actually), are used outside of battle, in situations where there is neither an offender or a defender.
 

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Jimlock

Adventurer
Ok. In a campaign with this house-rule, do illusionists rule the roost? Are PCs absolutely screwed when going up against the evil illusionist lich? Are PCs with an illusionist in the party going to casually defeat everything, making the DMs tear their hair out?

No.

They will not be broken. They will regain some of their lost prestige but they'd definitely stay bellow conjurers and transmuters... again.
 

Particle_Man

Explorer
Well, if no one would have a problem with the house rule that slightly nerfs detect magic (so it doesn't detect illusion magic) and some think that it would help the game with that nerf, then that sounds like a pretty good house rule. I will try it when next I am DM and see.
 


airwalkrr

Adventurer
I still don't see where there is a real problem at all. At least half of the illusion spells in the core rules are combat spells or spells that have applications in combat. In combat, detect magic isn't going to help most of the time (try using detect magic on color spray), and in the cases where it might help, you'd have to be desperate. In the case of the vast majority of illusion spells in the game, knowing that something is an illusion isn't going to make a difference. What it really comes down to is that detect magic can determine the illusory nature of a few effects at low-level that are really only intended to slow someone down in the first place.

Here's my own list of uses for illusions from the core rules that are NOT busted by detect magic:

Ghost Sound - This is mainly intended to be a momentary distraction. It can even be used to communicate over long distances.
Color Spray - This is an instantaneous effect.
Silent Image - Use it as a wall to block opponents' line of sight in combat for a regroup.
Ventriloquism - This is a distraction spell. Forcing someone to cast detect magic distracts them.
Blur - This is a combat spell.
Hypnotic Pattern - This is a combat spell. It can be used outside of combat to distract masses of people, but fascinated people aren't able to cast detect magic.
Invisibility - Who in their right mind turns invisible and stands around in the same spot for three rounds when a spellcaster is nearby?
Magic Mouth - This is used to impart information. Who cares if detect magic can tell its an illusion?
Minor Image - That wall you used to cast at 1st-level is now a big ogre who bellows threateningly. A distraction is all it needs to be.
Mirror Image - This is a combat spell. Even if one character can tell which images are illusions, they shift from round to round and you have to concentrate on detect magic to keep it up.
Displacement - Think of this as Greater Blur.
Invisibility Sphere - See Invisibility.
Major Image - What was once an ogre is now a fire-breathing dragon. A distraction is all it needs to be.
Greater Invisibility - See Invisibility.
Phantasmal Killer - This is an instantaneous effect.
Rainbow Pattern - See Hypnotic Pattern.
Shadow Conjuration - This might be an instantaneous effect. Even if it isn't and the subject disbelieves, it is still 1/5 real.
Dream - This spell sends a long-distance message to someone who is sleeping (i.e. incapable of casting detect magic).
Nightmare - See Dream. Anyone who is sleeping isn't casting detect magic.
Persistent Image - Suddenly that fire-breathing dragon can move around without you directing it. While your foe is casting detect magic, you are killing him with other spells.
Shadow Evocation - Many evocations are instantaneous, particularly the ones you'll probably end up using with this spell. Even if they aren't, they are still 1/5 real.
Mislead - See Invisibility, only this time the subject has no reason at all to believe you are invisible in the first place.
Permanent Image - That dragon can guard your stronghold. How many people are going to be willing to get within 60 ft of it in the first place?
Programmed Image - Often used to convey information under specific circumstances, in which case it doesn't matter if you know its an illusion.
Shadow Walk - This is a fast travel spell.
Mass Invisibility - See Invisibility.
Project Image - While a caster wastes three rounds determining the image is an illusion, the image has cast a fireball, a lightning bolt, and a cone of cold for good measure all while the REAL caster is hiding safely 230+ ft away.
Greater Shadow Conjuration - See Shadow Conjuration.
Simulacrum - Okay, so you've figured out my minion is an illusion. He's still a pretty darn good minion.
Scintillating Pattern - See Hypnotic Pattern.
Greater Shadow Evocation - See Shadow Evocation.
Shades - See Shadow Conjuration, only on steroids.
Weird - This is an instantaneous effect.

A gnome illusionist using nothing but the core rules can own this game with illusions.

This thread, busted.
 
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Particle_Man

Explorer
One area where it would be a problem would be disguise type glamours. If jack is disguised as the king and is detected as illusion magic, then "king" giving orders suddenly is wayyy less effective as a PC (or NPC) con. Similarly with simulacrims of the king.

Another would be where one is trying to set up one's opponent for a surprise attack on them (frex, either scare them away from the "ogre" so they fall into a pit/run into invisible bad guys, get set up for the area of effect of a fireball), or have them rush towards the "orc guarding juicy treasure" so they fall into a pit (etc., etc.)). Also, simple disguises for traps (an illusory wall that conceals a spear trap, or an illusionary floor over a pit, for example). DM stops both of these. DM at will stops these all the time.

Also, re: Shadow Conjuration, 1/5th combat value is not that effective, especially since you are already behind the Summon Monster X curve as you only duplicate lower level spells with Shadow Conjuration and its ilk. :)
 

Tovec

Explorer
Ok, what is your fix for the illusion school that is better than "Detect Magic doesn't detect illusions"?

*cracks knuckles*

What if Illusion spells recreated effects from other schools such as conjuration, evocation, transmuatation, enchantment, etc.
Anything from the illusion school which doesn't fit as a replicated effect (I'm looking at invisibility and alike) then put them under a different school such as enchantment.
Then to realize it isn't real it is a DC same as now. If trying to determine through some other measure it isn't real they must pass the save DC all the same. IF this is still too low then make it an opposed caster check.

I guess the short form would be it is thought to be something other than illusion unless the person using detect magic passes the save, even with DM.
 

Jimlock

Adventurer
This thread, busted.

Why don't you go on and read the thread first, because what I make from your comments and attitude, its as if you haven't read any of it.

In the case of the vast majority of illusion spells in the game, knowing that something is an illusion isn't going to make a difference.

Here, we care about illusions. We love them and believe that greatness CAN be achieved through Illusions.

What it really comes down to is that detect magic can determine the illusory nature of a few effects at low-level that are really only intended to slow someone down in the first place.

WHAT? low level effects????

PLEASE airwalkrr read the thread first before coming out like that...

ONLY to slow someone down?

Sorry to sound like a prick, but this sounds SO narrow minded and seems like it comes from a mouth of a strictly combat-loving player. And your list proves it.

Illusions have hundreds of applications.

If you disagree, we can start a new thread and I can start writing some of them down for you.
 

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