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Ability scores - How intrinsic are they to D&D?

You didn't. But you have clearly stated that you distrust statistics because of the outlier results to the point that even when odds are heavily in your favor, you don't play like they are.

Pro poker players aren't like that. They get a "bad beat" and they will gripe about it, but given the same situation, they would not let that change their playstyle.



The odds in the two fighter duel are not frivolous. The Dex18 PC has a 40% chance of an unbeatable roll, and 90% of his modified roll results beat 50% of the Dex3 fighter's possible outcomes. IOW, to win, the Dex3 fighter has to roll significantly better than the statistical average just to have a chance at winning, while the Dex18 guy can roll crappy and still win most of the time.

The odds in this favor the Dex18 guy more than the typical D&D encounter.

If odds like that popped up on a sporting event, you wouldn't get action in Vegas.

It isn't that I distrust statistics. It's that I recognize that statistics are vastly more reliable over a large number of samples, as opposed to a single sample.

It's much safer to play 18 Str vs 3 Str in the same scenario. A bad initiative roll steals the 18 Dex player's advantage. The 18 Str player can have a single (well, probably more than one) bad roll and still win because, even leaving aside that he has a better attack modifier, he deals much more damage. The 18 Dex player will probably be on his last legs after the fight even if he does win initiative. The 18 Str character, on the other hand, will look significantly better than his opponent regardless of initiative.
 

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You didn't. But you have clearly stated that you distrust statistics because of the outlier results to the point that even when odds are heavily in your favor, you don't play like they are.

Pro poker players aren't like that. They get a "bad beat" and they will gripe about it, but given the same situation, they would not let that change their playstyle.



The odds in the two fighter duel are not frivolous. The Dex18 PC has a 40% chance of an unbeatable roll, and 90% of his modified roll results beat 50% of the Dex3 fighter's possible outcomes. IOW, to win, the Dex3 fighter has to roll significantly better than the statistical average just to have a chance at winning, while the Dex18 guy can roll crappy and still win most of the time.

The odds in this favor the Dex18 guy more than the typical D&D encounter.

If odds like that popped up on a sporting event, you wouldn't get action in Vegas.

I concur. I'm obviously still baffled by Fan's response. He's basically saying that in a theoretical discussion, ignore science and math in favor of the fuzzy factor that doesn't really prove anything.

this is the way that noobs talk about poker. they insist they're right about the moves they make, because they've gotten lucky in the past.

Fact is, in lieu of actually playing it out repeatedly, statistics IS how how you determine the outcome. This is the whole point of considering Damage Per Round (DPR) = 9.

In statistics, execeptions don't count. yes, the low dex fighter COULD win. But that is improbable, and thus victory goes to the most probable.
 

It isn't that I distrust statistics. It's that I recognize that statistics are vastly more reliable over a large number of samples, as opposed to a single sample.

It's much safer to play 18 Str vs 3 Str in the same scenario. A bad initiative roll steals the 18 Dex player's advantage. The 18 Str player can have a single (well, probably more than one) bad roll and still win because, even leaving aside that he has a better attack modifier, he deals much more damage. The 18 Dex player will probably be on his last legs after the fight even if he does win initiative. The 18 Str character, on the other hand, will look significantly better than his opponent regardless of initiative.

Statistics should inform your decision BEFORE the single sample of your actual instance. Knowing that you have 3 DEX vs. the 18 DEX fighter, you should be wary that the odds are against you.

BTW, I just made a grid in Excel and did the math. The 18 Dex wins init 334/400 times (83%).

The swingier part of the fight is the actual damage rolled. But for competitive analysis, one has to use the average outcome of the damage for comparitive purposes.

If the 2 fighters don't do a lot of damage on average, they're going to make more damage rolls, which will probably produce more results trending to the average that if the fight only needed 3 rounds for the dice to possibly kill you.

And by no means should one assume the winning fighter will be in great health. Statisically, the whole damage deduction by average damage assumes the attrition rates are applied each round.

Obviusly then, in an uneven damage comparison, the winning side will fare better. But that's no different than our 3dex vs. 18 dex fighters wearing the same armor, thus having differing ACs due to dex bonus. The 18dex guy gets hit less, thus takes less damage per round statistically.
 

It's much safer to play 18 Str vs 3 Str in the same scenario.
No argument there.

It's much safer to play 18 Str vs 3 Str in the same scenario. A bad initiative roll steals the 18 Dex player's advantage.
But it would have to be stunningly bad.

20% of Dex3's possible initiative results are complete losers, as in he has a 1 in 5 chance of losing simply by virtue of his own roll without looking at Dex18's roll. 40% of Dex18's rolls are auto-wins. Dex18 wins 50% of the time he rolls a 3.

Everything else is just a matter of comparison in which there is an 8 point spread differential due to ability adjustments.

Statistics should inform your decision BEFORE the single sample of your actual instance. Knowing that you have 3 DEX vs. the 18 DEX fighter, you should be wary that the odds are against you.

Exactly.

BTW, I just made a grid in Excel and did the math. The 18 Dex wins init 334/400 times (83%).

Thanks for taking the time to do that!
 

Statistics should inform your decision BEFORE the single sample of your actual instance. Knowing that you have 3 DEX vs. the 18 DEX fighter, you should be wary that the odds are against you.

BTW, I just made a grid in Excel and did the math. The 18 Dex wins init 334/400 times (83%).

So let me get this straight. What the two of you are essentially saying is that, because 18 Dex has an 83% chance of success, he's essentially guaranteed to succeed? That we can disregard the 17% chance 3 Dex has to win?

Look at those odds for a second and consider what they imply. In almost 1 out of 5 cases, the slowest (clumsiest) man in the world will be faster on the draw than the fastest (most agile) man in the world. This is in a scenario that has already ruled out the element of surprise. Does that strike you as realistic?

In the real world, would you take a drug that had a 17% chance to kill you? After all, you have an 83% chance to live! Those are great odds, right?
 

That we can disregard the 17% chance 3 Dex has to win?
No. But given a life-or-death struggle, that 83% chance of victory is HUGE, and is arguably larger than your odds of success for most one-on-one fights you'd get in a game of D&D.

So, while I wouldn't ignore that 17% chance, I'd still take the 83% chance of victory.

Does that strike you as realistic?

Yes, to a point. I doubt most battle plans in armed conflicts are calculated to have odds of success calculated at 87%.

And for those that do, they usually have contingency plans for when things go wrong...because if you aren't prepared for possible failures, you WILL fail.

It probably is still a bit high, but

1) its a game. There are other games that might handle initiative more "accurately", but this is about as good as it gets in D&D until the Dex18 guy starts boosting his Dex beyond the game's definition of the upper limit of "human."

2) I'd still take those odds.
In the real world, would you take a drug that had a 17% chance to kill you? After all, you have an 83% chance to live! Those are great odds, right?

That's situationally dependent.

If it was a drug for a headache? No. To alleviate sleeplessness or an upset stomach? No.

If it was a possible cure for a life-threatening disease? Don't get between me and my glass of water, because I'm taking that pill as soon as I can.

Don't believe me? Look at the success/failure rates for all kinds of treatments for serious illnesses. Many of them carry with them a chance of fatality.

And as a matter of fact, according to certain analyses examining ALL medical procedures in the USA, there is an aggregate 17% chance of some kind of error. The severity, of course, depends upon the nature of the error and what the treatment was for.
 
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So let me get this straight. What the two of you are essentially saying is that, because 18 Dex has an 83% chance of success, he's essentially guaranteed to succeed? That we can disregard the 17% chance 3 Dex has to win?

No. Statistics doesn't say it will absolutely win every time (or even ever). What you should do with statistics is always choose the side with the better number. bacause statistically, you will win more often.

Let's say we're arena fighting. 2 players are running the fighters (or maybe it's a computer doing all the rolling as a straight stand and swing fight).

Would you rather bet on Dexter or Limpy? Knowing that according to our math, Dexter should win 83% of the time. Let's assume our math is correct (because that's a whole 'nother ball of correctable wax).

While technically Limpy COULD win, I would rather bet on Dexter. Put a little more on the table, and assume you live or die based on who you pick.

Yes, it would totally suck if I picked Dexter and he lost. But we don't KNOW the outcome going in, we only know the chances. And Dexter has better chances than Limpy.

Look at those odds for a second and consider what they imply. In almost 1 out of 5 cases, the slowest (clumsiest) man in the world will be faster on the draw than the fastest (most agile) man in the world. This is in a scenario that has already ruled out the element of surprise. Does that strike you as realistic?

In real life, I have a black belt. Let's assume you do not have any combat training. Statistically, Danny will bet on my beating you. Because I have more levels than you (the virtual non-combat you). But, I recognize that in a fight, anything could happen. While I want to remain as confident in my ability as I can, technically, I might fumble, you might land a lucky hit. And the longer that fight goes on, the more chances you have to get lucky over my "sure thing"

In the real world, would you take a drug that had a 17% chance to kill you? After all, you have an 83% chance to live! Those are great odds, right?

Like cocaine or heroin? Which apparently has a pretty high addiction rate? And people apparently take quite willingly.

I can't tell you that D&D is realistic. I can tell you what the math shows. And that if you know the odds, you should do what the odds tell you and ignore the freak impossible successes.

Statistics and odds often run into people's intuition about what to do.
It's easy for a newbie poker player to ignore the odds and say his way works because he just won playing 2-7 offsuit (the worst hand in Texas Hold'em).

A pro-player knows the odds and plays them instead. He also uses that knowledge for when to fold (like folding pre-flop on 2-7).

When you win at something improbable, it reinforces your decision that you were right. That doesn't mean you were, it just means you got lucky.

When you do what the odds say and win, in a way, you didn't get lucky, you simply didn't get unlucky.

Another important thing to remember is choice as it applies to odds.

In our arena, Dexter and Limpy don't get to choose to fight. They have to. So if you could choose which one to be, you'd want to be Dexter.

But more often in life, you can choose to fight or not. So if you are Limpy, and have a choice on who to fight, you would avoid Dexter, and wait until a weaker opponent came along.

This is what happens in Texas Hold'Em. The pros fold A LOT of hands. They wait until they have good hands. At a 10 man table, they don't like to play with every man in on the flop. Because that worsens any "good" hand's chances that something weak might get lucky.

The point then, if you know your chances of victory are poor, you use that knowledge to avoid the conflict until your chances are in your favor.

It makes sense for a 1st leve fighter: you fight a goblin, run from a bugbear.
 

Statistically, Danny will bet on my beating you.

Or to put it differently, almost nobody bet on Buster Douglas to beat Mike Tyson. Buster won. That would be the statistical outlier outcome.

But the people who gambled big money because that is how they make their living? Almost to a man, they put the bulk of their bets on Tyson.

How did the outlier result affect them? Well, the next time they saw odds like the Tyson vs Douglas fight, they still put their money on the favored opponent, because they knew the odds favored that decision.
 

Or to put it differently, almost nobody bet on Buster Douglas to beat Mike Tyson. Buster won. That would be the statistical outlier outcome.

But the people who gambled big money because that is how they make their living? Almost to a man, they put the bulk of their bets on Tyson.

How did the outlier result affect them? Well, the next time they saw odds like the Tyson vs Douglas fight, they still put their money on the favored opponent, because they knew the odds favored that decision.

That's a better example than my silly one.
 


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