Need Help Brainstorming How A Xenophobic Empire Can Arise

[the Jester]

Pretty much every human culture thinks it is the best culture, even when they think other cultures have superior technology (often seen as magic). I have no trouble at all justifying a xenophobic empire. Imperial Rome called pretty much everyone else but Persians barbarians; Europeans felt the need to "civilize" pretty much every other culture they contacted during the Age of Exploration; the U.S. felt itself superior to native cultures and entitled to overrun them as it expanded west; examples abound.

If a culture feels it's inferior to another culture, it allows itself to get eaten by the superior one. If it just feels overpowered, it fights to survive.

 

[LurkAway]

Pretty much every human culture thinks it is the best culture, even when they think other cultures have superior technology (often seen as magic). I have no trouble at all justifying a xenophobic empire. Imperial Rome called pretty much everyone else but Persians barbarians; Europeans felt the need to "civilize" pretty much every other culture they contacted during the Age of Exploration; the U.S. felt itself superior to native cultures and entitled to overrun them as it expanded west; examples abound.

Imperial Rome didn't think the barbarians had superior might and they were right until the decline of Rome, the Europeans didn't think other cultures had superior technology and they were right which was why colonization was so successful, and the US didn't feel that native cultures had superior technology and they were correct that guns beat bows and arrows.

If a culture feels it's inferior to another culture, it allows itself to get eaten by the superior one. If it just feels overpowered, it fights to survive.

Fighting to survive is not exactly the same as believing you're the heir and intellectual mecca of a new godless universe.

 

[the Jester]

Imperial Rome didn't think the barbarians had superior might and they were right until the decline of Rome, the Europeans didn't think other cultures had superior technology and they were right which was why colonization was so successful, and the US didn't feel that native cultures had superior technology and they were correct that guns beat bows and arrows.

Sorry, I ran my two points together; I was using all of those as examples of xenophobic empire-building in action.

Although "xenophobia" might be a little hard of a word there; but the point is, all those cultures saw themselves as superior to the other cultures they encountered and entitled to take their resources and land. It's not a far step from xenophobia.

 

[LurkAway]

Sorry, I ran my two points together; I was using all of those as examples of xenophobic empire-building in action.

Although "xenophobia" might be a little hard of a word there; but the point is, all those cultures saw themselves as superior to the other cultures they encountered and entitled to take their resources and land. It's not a far step from xenophobia.

I agree with xenophobic empire-building, but the key is that the empire-builders saw themselves as superior because they *were* superior. Whereas the ones that saw themselves as superior but couldn't walk the talk are the ones that never got around to empire building. Empire building is a bit suicidal when you're an underdog, and people aren't suicidal by nature.

 

[Huw]

Maybe they could build up some sort of hero worship for some high level humans, both alive and part of the scheme and some dead cultural heroes reimagined for the new regime. That way, they can show the people that humans are superior by always comparing a non-human, even a dragon, to one of these heroes.

Such a thing has of course been practised by too many real-world cultures to list, but a good start would be looking at the personality cults developed by the USSR.

 

[Celebrim]

The human inclination is to believe in its superiority over other *human* tribes/nations, not over demons, dragons and gods that they presumed to exist. That is, the rats believing they are superior over another clan of rats, but dare not wage war on the dinosaurs.

First of all, if the human inclination is sufficient to believe in its superiority to other mortals alone, then that's sufficient enough inclination to explain 90% of the behavior he requires of his nation. The remaining 10% is easily explained by, "We have been wronged." You don't have to insist on human rationality, especially given the abundent evidence of human irrationality.

Plus, while you are emphasizing one difference between the D&D universe and our own, namely the tangible presence of monsterous creatures of superhuman power, you are neglecting to emphasis the other equally important difference between the D&D universe and own. Namely, in the D&D universe humans can legitimately acquire demigod-like super-heroic power. Those dragons and demons and stuff may overawe real humans by comparison, but they must certainly do not overawe the humans of the D&D world and we have countless examples to demonstrate that. Quite unlike the real world, in the D&D world you can aspire to be a god and even dare to make war on the gods. If you think human hubris is great now, imagine when they can become 20th level characters. If you think human hubris is great now, imagine what it is like in a world where you really can make things happen because you will them to happen.

There is also a difference between believing in the superiority of your culture (cuisine, language, politics, etc) vs believing in superiority enough to wage war on the world. The latter requires a real advantage, like the Roman technology and superiority in battle.

Human history shows that anyone who acquires the latter tends to use it to spread their culture, beliefs, language, politics, and systems to their neighbors - for good or ill, with our without the consent of the recievers.

However, they are seeking to wrest the secrets of the universe from those much more powerful. That takes a certain hubris with no equivalent in the real world.

I disagree. When it comes to hubris, real humans have no parallel., and seizing the universe by force if necessary is something mankind begins to fantacize about from the time they are barely able to walk. Every three year old would lead a war on the heavens if they could. Imagine then what it would be like if said three year olds could grow up into to customed sword and sorcery ubermensch? Heck, for some players of RPGs, this is actually the main attraction.

 

[LurkAway]

Maybe they could build up some sort of hero worship for some high level humans, both alive and part of the scheme and some dead cultural heroes reimagined for the new regime. That way, they can show the people that humans are superior by always comparing a non-human, even a dragon, to one of these heroes.

Such a thing has of course been practised by too many real-world cultures to list, but a good start would be looking at the personality cults developed by the USSR.

An enormous diverse prestigious metropolis sounds like it has a significant percentage of sophisticated educated people, and the royalty and upper class are probably fabulously wealthy and content. It's not easy to convert this status quo.

If there was a disaster and breakdown of alliances, turning 100% xenophobic seems improbable. It's absurd to think that ALL the non-humans and ALL the gods are to blame for some disaster. You might scapegoat one particular race and their pantheon, or you might appease them, or you might turn to another divine patron to support you, but it takes a strange twist of paranoia to turn your back to the entire damn universe.

Although anything is gonzo-possible, it seems improbable to believe in superiority over all non-humans and the gods themselves. For every human dragonslayer you put on a pedestal, your political and clerical opponents will put another dozen racial and divine dragonslayers up there with him. And for every story of a human that slays a dragon, there will be a story of a dragon that burns down a village. The people know well enough that if the metropolis should go to war against all non-humans and blacklist the gods, there will not be enough non-divine human heroes to win a World War much less defend their city from counterattack.

Finally, I think the xenophobic war-mongering empire-building is at odds with the intellectual universe exploration. The scientific and arcane minds at the prestigious universities need money and resources and, well, stability and cooperation to even begin to dream of understanding the secrets of the universe. War will suck away all that, and draft the scientists into war mages and combat engineers. Only after the empire has been built can resources be pumped back into intellectual research of that ginormous scale.

 

[LurkAway]

I disagree. When it comes to hubris, real humans have no parallel., and seizing the universe by force if necessary is something mankind begins to fantacize about from the time they are barely able to walk. Every three year old would lead a war on the heavens if they could. Imagine then what it would be like if said three year olds could grow up into to customed sword and sorcery ubermensch?

OK, I imagining this 3 yr old growing up. I imagine him realizing that his 3 yr old fantasies were silly toddler dreams and it's time to grow up. I'm imagining him dreaming of working and meeting a girl and having a family. Most hubris quickly turns to fear and self-survival instinct more often that you give credit for. If humans were driven primarily by hubris, we would have gone extinct ages ago.

 

[Celebrim]

An enormous diverse prestigious metropolis sounds like it has a significant percentage of sophisticated educated people, and the royalty and upper class are probably fabulously wealthy and content. It's not easy to convert this status quo.

It seems that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, but to me the summation of our differences can be noted by the fact that you think this situation is the least likely to convert into a xenophobic, god-hating, malevolent force and I on the other hand can think of no situation more conducive to that transition.

Pride goes before the fall. When you are used to having your way, the times when you don't get to have your way chaff as injustice just that much more strongly. When you are fabulously wealthy and content, that's precisely when you are most likely to think you don't need anyone else. Whenever you are used to being in charge, that's precisely when you are most likely to think that the slightest push back against your desires consitutes insufferable wrong against your dignity and person.

No nation is more likely to go on a xenophobic violent crusade than a great wealty and powerful one. No nation is more likely to believe that it has all of the answers than one where everyone has had the finest education. No nation is less likely to fear war and underestimates its enemies than one that realizes its strong and mighty.

 

[LurkAway]

It seems that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, but to me the summation of our differences can be noted by the fact that you think this situation is the least likely to convert into a xenophobic, god-hating, malevolent force and I on the other hand can think of no situation more conducive to that transition.

To clarify, I'm not hostile to the OP's goal, but I don't understand the blase attitude that it could and should all happen naturally and unfold effortlessly due to human nature. On the contrary, I think a deus ex machina is required to product this extreme behavior.

And I haven't made general sweeping statements either; I gave a number of specific details all adding up to an improbable conclusion. For example, that while there are human heroes who slay dragons, there are more non-human heroes who slay dragons. This particular empire cannot hire enough human heroes in order to conquer the universe. Plus any human mercenary heroes will be outnumbered by non-human heroes and divine heroes. This particular empire doesn't even have access to divine healing and divine heroes because they've blacklisted the gods. Such an impossible suicidal situation they have put themselves into. And so forth.

There are too many obstacles from the beginning to the end to make it happen naturally as implied IMO, and I honestly don't get why anyone would be so quick to jump on that bandwagon.