Dungeons & Discourse: Atheism (and related)

[I'm A Banana]

So, it's no secret that I'm a big Planescape nerd, and I dully enjoy philosophy-infused D&D. But I don't think it's limited to that setting and its tropes, so I'd like to see what the ENWorld BrainTrust has to say about various philosophical concepts in their dungeon crawls/High Fantasy/Sword & Sorcery whatnot.

I'd figure I'd start with a something that seems a bit weird on the face of it, in a D&D setting: Atheism.

How have you explored this idea, in characters or in campaigns, in your own games? What ideas do you have for using it in adventure and character concepts?

Atheism always seems odd in a standard D&D world, what with clerics and in some cases actual gods. But D&D has pulled this off before, treating the "gods" like powerful wizards or dragons or monsters (like the Athar faction in Planescape), treating clerical magic as willpower or devotion independent of a god (like the 3e cleric), or jettisoning divine power altogether (like 4e Dark Sun), so it's certainly doable. What's your take on D&D-style "atheism"? How would a character go about being an atheist in a D&D world? How would a D&D world without gods look? What would the clerics in such a setting be? Tell me your ideas!

 

[Kaodi]

Insanity. No one can wrong by being an atheist who is insane, .

 

[RangerWickett]

Deities in D&D are much more like philosophers or politicians. You can agree with their ideology or not, and sometimes there are consequences, but you can't really pretend they don't exist at all.

So an atheist might be a 'swing voter.'

Or he might be an 'anarchist' who thinks the whole system needs to be torn down.

Or he might be a 'conspiracy nut' who thinks it's all a scam by priests, who are just wizards with a knack for putting the fear of god(s) in commoners.

 

[LostSoul]

Playing a believer in D&D always seemed odd to me, when the keys to success were in my hands instead of a higher power.

 

[pemerton]

I've never run a fantasy game without gods.

But I did run an Oriental Adventures-style Rolemaster game in which the PCs ended up opposed to (most of) the gods. Some basic features of the cosmology were left implicit rather than explicit, but the general idea was that, way back when, arrangements had been struck between various gods and other immortals which ensured that (i) the laws of karma would be upheld, and (ii) being from outside the karmic realm (Lovecraftian/Voidal/Far Realm beings) would be excluded from the world.

The PCs included a warrior monk, an esoteric "mind monk", and an animal spirit who had been demoted to an ordinary fox for violating his duties, but contrary to the directive of heaven was now living as a human. The esoteric monk's goal was to escape the wheel of karma, and so he took an inordinate interest in those beings already outside it. The fox spirit was already defying the orders of the constables of hell (who enforce the karmic order). And the paladin came to side with these two against heaven once he realised that heaven was going to let ordinary people be destroyed, and also let some good immortals suffer, simply in order to maintain the karmic pacts.

So no atheism, but definitely PCs defying heaven, in a broader thematic context of questions about obedience, authority and duty.

 

[Dire Bare]

In the real world, atheism is the belief that the supernatural does not exist. There is no God, gods, or other supernatural phenomenon such as ghosts. At best, phenomena such as ghosts or UFOs aren't of the supernatural or divine realm, they are phenomena that can be perfectly understood by science and reason . . . but we haven't achieved that level of knowledge yet.

In a fantasy world where the supernatural is very real . . . . it becomes science, or can be viewed that way. The gods quite demonstrably exist, but they aren't really gods, just powerful beings lording it over the rest of us. I need to respect Thor because he can hurl some thunderbolts at me, but worship him? With the right knowledge and perseverance, anyone could earn the power of the gods.

I think that was basically the viewpoint of the Athar in Planescape . . . or am I mixing my factions?

 

[S'mon]

Atheists don't worship the gods. Even IRL this position is not dependent on whether or not the gods exist*. In some of my campaigns most Arcane magic-users are pretty well atheist.

*So sayeth Barbara Smoker, a leading British atheist & humanist (kind of a high priestess of atheism), in some book I recall reading many years ago.

 

[blargney the second]

Atheists in D&D? They made their will save to disbelieve.
-blarg

 

[LurkAway]

They're probably a persecuted minority. Mocked by others for failing to respect the proper order of things, and by the clergy who don't want them spreading their blasphemous ideas. Probably a lot of closet athiests.

When times are bad and most are appeasing the gods out of hope or fear, the athiests shake their fists to the heavens and blame the gods for their indifference. Perhaps an athiest epic hero is like a socialist; he plan to attain godhood and once deified, he will spread his power to the people.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I hope this isn't stepping too close to real world religion, but I'll use a very gentle example.

What about "partial atheism" or "selective atheism"? I don't know if this is the correct term (especially since I just made it up), but...

In the real world, esp in the U.S.A., we give some creedence/understanding to christians, muslims, jews, hindus, buddists, etc.

However, I'd be surprised to find someone who believed in Thor, Osiris, or Zeus.



Might this be even more magnified in a fantasy world? Perhaps less?



And, yeah, I've seen it played that clerics are just "weird mages who follow a bunch of superstitious rules" because "if there are gods, why don't they directly intervene?"