A new Tier System for 5E

[Votan]

Well, in the 1E Forgotten Realms Boxed Set they added another two ages of Dragon. So you could have had a 111 hp Large Red dragon.

I think the goal of 2E/3E (as I recall stated at the time) was to make dragons the most powerful (or thereabouts) creatures in the game. So it made sense for some degree of inflation in their case.

True. Comparing Titans and Dragon in the 1E AD&D Monster Manual definitely made dragons look relatively weak on the absolute power scale. So some degree of improvement on this point likely made sense. AD&D 1E suffered from the organic evolution over time -- the whole level structure wasn't thought out as creatures were added. One very good thing 2E was able to do was to rescale things from the ground up.

The problem with that approach is that they folded epic into core, but again this just becomes epic in name. The end of the 'core' game should be the beginning of the epic game. Things like Ancient Dragons, Balors and Tarrasques should be foes encountered at the end of the Paragon Tier. By comparison, the epic tier should be Dragon Gods, Demon Princes and Godzilla. But the epic tier skips such foes until the very end.

I think they'd have been better off changing the way that the game plays completely. Focus on influence in arenas where direct intervention is difficult. That way you don't have PCs killing Orcus and Bane (upsetting the cosmology). It also would give epic a very different feel, which is a massive plus.

Also, since the Lord of the Rings (movie), the Balor has clearly been increased to Huge size to parallel the Balrog.



I was thinking that what 4E does badly is sacrifices verisimilitude.

If we were to assign races a default level based on individual threat levels we might end up with something like:

COMMON
1. Goblin, Kobold
2. Hobgoblin, Bullywug
3. Orc, Lizardman
4. Gnoll, Sahuagin
5. Bugbear, Thri-Kreen

UNCOMMON
6. Derro
7. Duergar
8. Kuo-Toa
9. Drow
10. Yuan-Ti

PLANAR COMMON
11. Eladrin
12. Shadar-Kai
13. Githyanki
14. Rakshasa
15. Mind Flayer

So the bulk of Drow or Yuan-Ti encounters should be in and around high heroic/low paragon tier. Not high epic (as detailed in MM3).

That means there is a vast dearth of properly epic creatures and races in the epic tier. The Forsaken and Weavers spring to mind as making sense as epic races, but few others.

Agreed. If nothing else, it makes a lot of backstory harder to work with. If Drow are mostly epic level encounters then they should be interfering with Deities and not harassing elves (who, as a PC race, are of a completely different order of power).

There is a massive trade off in 4E to make the math work well (avoiding the low level opponents can never hit issues of 3E) that sacrifices something as scaling the creatures to the character level makes progression feel less like . . . progress, I guess.

 

[S'mon]

I thought the MM3 Drow were Lolth's personal guard, the guys & gals you'd face in the Demonweb Pits as you hacked your way through to a final Level 30 confrontation with her? Upper_Krust often complains about the lack of suitably levelled minions for the uber-BBEGs like Lolth, I thought this was an attempt to address that issue.

Presumably Corellon has Eladrin champions of similar power, it's just that statting them out is not a priority.

 

[S'mon]

I think they'd have been better off changing the way that the game plays completely. Focus on influence in arenas where direct intervention is difficult. That way you don't have PCs killing Orcus and Bane (upsetting the cosmology).

I'm more with Krusty (unsurprisingly, as I was his DM in his formative years) - I'd rather they statted out Bane as well as Orcus, so Epic PCs could kill both! I also agree with Krusty that the uber-BBEGs should not all be statted out as final end-of-campaign bosses for 30th level PCs, they should be statted throughout the Epic tier. Typical Demon Lords should be low-Epic Solos IMO, and I'd probably have statted Orcus around level 25 Solo, taking his 1e stats as a guide, with Demogorgon level 26 or 27. Whereas Bane as 'God of War' would make a really appropriate Epic end-boss at around level 35 Solo.

As it is, for those of us who like god-killing campaigns in the Moorcockian style, you can only really run it with PCs at 30th level. Which I guess is doable but the lack of mechanical character advancement is a problem.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Votan!

True. Comparing Titans and Dragon in the 1E AD&D Monster Manual definitely made dragons look relatively weak on the absolute power scale. So some degree of improvement on this point likely made sense. AD&D 1E suffered from the organic evolution over time -- the whole level structure wasn't thought out as creatures were added. One very good thing 2E was able to do was to rescale things from the ground up.

I kinda liked 1E Dragons better than 2E Dragons though, the design (of Dragons) was a lot more elegant, plus it made them relatively unique monsters.

I think they'd have been better off changing the way that the game plays completely. Focus on influence in arenas where direct intervention is difficult. That way you don't have PCs killing Orcus and Bane (upsetting the cosmology). It also would give epic a very different feel, which is a massive plus.

Not sure I quite agree. PCs should be able to kill Orcus and Bane, it should just be laterally* FAR more difficult than it currently is (with Orcus anyway).

*By laterally more difficult, I don't mean increasing the personal power of Orcus - if anything he should be lower in level. Instead I mean that when PCs face off against Orcus and his forces it shouldn't be handled with bitesize encounters that the PCs can (relatively easily) handle.

I mean if you were 'the King' (of somewhere), would you just be waiting to take on your adversaries ALONE (!?) when you can call upon armies of millions, and dozens of champions of your own. Of course not.

Yes you would try to soften up any attacking force before engaging it, but you would keep the best of the best as your personal bodyguard.

A final fight against Orcus should have involved Orcus + half a dozen Anti-heroes (Quah-Nomog, Sleepless, Tersoth, Klavikus etc.)

Agreed. If nothing else, it makes a lot of backstory harder to work with. If Drow are mostly epic level encounters then they should be interfering with Deities and not harassing elves (who, as a PC race, are of a completely different order of power).

S'mon made a good point (which I'll address shortly) in that those Drow were meant to be Lolth's Abyssal Elite.

But my initial point still stands about a loss of verisimilitude in general with 4E.

There is a massive trade off in 4E to make the math work well (avoiding the low level opponents can never hit issues of 3E) that sacrifices something as scaling the creatures to the character level makes progression feel less like . . . progress, I guess.

I comment in my review of the E-series (4E) modules that one of the mistakes is using the same monster only with more levels (Glabrezu is the specific example that springs to mind). Instead monsters should be rank demoted if they are being levelled up.

Glabrezu = Elite 23 = Standard 27 = Minion 35...rather than making another Elite version thats Level 26 or whatever.

 

[Squire James]

I once ran the Second Darkness Adventure Path under 4e rules, so I was faced with coming up for an explanation of why Drow were level 2 to 6 on the surface, while the ones met later underground were more like 11 to 20.

What I settled on was pretty simple, if a bit illogical. Drow lose 10 levels in "the sunlit world" above the ground (and none of their special gear was magical). That same lady the party nearly trashed as a level 5 above ground can still be a badass underground at level 15. It kind of explains why the Drow never successfully conquered the surface world (or in many cases never even tried)!

Presumably, you can take this a step further, and have them GAIN 10 levels in the Demonweb Pits, so the aforementioned drow lady would be level 25 when rolling with Lolth in her Robot Spider Palace!

All this presumes Drow are never PC's, of course (which this Adventure Path strongly suggested anyway).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I thought the MM3 Drow were Lolth's personal guard, the guys & gals you'd face in the Demonweb Pits as you hacked your way through to a final Level 30 confrontation with her? Upper_Krust often complains about the lack of suitably levelled minions for the uber-BBEGs like Lolth, I thought this was an attempt to address that issue.

Fair point. I was too quick to lump the (MM3) drow in with the Yuan-ti.

Yes, the uber-BBEG's typically lack ANY relative minions and those drow were a good attempt at fleshing out those ranks.

I plugged Lolth into my Religion Calculator to see the results:

+1 RANK - Final Fight MAXIMUM = Level 40 Encounter
DEITY - Lolth = x (where x in this case = 44 or Solo 35)
-1 RANK - e.g. Lieutenant/Demigod/Demon Prince (less than 10) = x-5 (Elite 35 or Solo 30)
-2 RANKS - e.g. Avatar/Drow Pope/Quasi-deity/Demon Lord (less than 100) = x-10 (Standard 34, Elite 30 or Solo 25)
-3 RANKS - e.g. Drow Archpriestess/Champion (less than 1000) = x-15 (Standard 29 or Elite 25)
-4 RANKS - e.g. Aspect/Draegloth Abomination/Drow House Mother (less than 10,000) = x-20 (Minion 32 or Standard 24)
-5 RANKS - e.g. Yochlol/Drow High Priestess (less than 100,000) = x-25 (Minion 27 or Standard 19)
-6 RANKS - e.g. Drider/Drow Priestess (less than 1 million) = x-30 (Minion 22 or Standard 14)

The above suggests that the Drow detailed in MM3 would be -4 RANK servants (or -3 RANK for the Lady of Spiders and Eclavdra). A Balor (such as Errtu) would also be -3 RANK.

Therefore we can still see that any encounters with Lolth and her servants will still be very light on -1 and -2 RANK monsters.

A final fight against Lolth might (more) realistically have:

Lolth (Level 35 Solo)
-1 RANK: Vhaerun (Demigod, Level 30 Solo)
-2 RANKS: Eclavdra & Errtu (both Level 30 Elite)
-3 RANKS: Lolth's Champions...four (Demon-possessed*) Drow NPCs (all Level 29)
*Possessed by Draegloth Abominations which manifest when each of them is killed.
- 5 RANKS: Yochlol...6 of these creatures start. If one is killed another appears until Lolth is destroyed (though you only gain XP for 6).

Thats a Level 38 (ish*) Encounter.

*Technically Level 39 but with the Draegloth not starting the fight and the XP total only about 10% over the threshold I'd call it 38.

You could have 8 Champions of Lolth (the "Eight Legs of Lolth" maybe?) plus 8 possessing Draegloth Abominations and still keep it to a Level 39 Encounter by dropping Eclavdra to Level 29 Elite. Although that might be too many NPCs in play to keep things running smoothly.

MAXED ENCOUNTER (Level 40)

Lolth (Level 35 Solo)
Graz'zt (Level 32 Solo)
Vhaerun (Level 30 Solo)
Eclavdra (Level 28 Elite)
Errtu (Level 27 Elite)
x4 Drow Champions (Level 29...each possessed by a Level 24 Draegloth Abominations)
x6 Yochlol (Level 27 minions...respawn if killed before Lolth)

Special Notes:

1. Graz'zt will teleport away when reduced to 75% hp
2. If Lolth is killed...all Yochlol automatically destroyed
3. If Lolth is killed...Vhaerun will teleport away when reduced to 75% hp
4. If Lolth & Vhaerun are killed...Eclavdra will attempt to flee when reduced to 75% hp
5. If Lolth, Vhaerun & Eclavdra are killed...the remaining Drow will try to escape.
6. Any Draegloth Abominations fight to the death.

...okay I went off on one there, but something like that is what I mean.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'm more with Krusty (unsurprisingly, as I was his DM in his formative years) - I'd rather they statted out Bane as well as Orcus, so Epic PCs could kill both! I also agree with Krusty that the uber-BBEGs should not all be statted out as final end-of-campaign bosses for 30th level PCs, they should be statted throughout the Epic tier. Typical Demon Lords should be low-Epic Solos IMO, and I'd probably have statted Orcus around level 25 Solo, taking his 1e stats as a guide, with Demogorgon level 26 or 27. Whereas Bane as 'God of War' would make a really appropriate Epic end-boss at around level 35 Solo.

As it is, for those of us who like god-killing campaigns in the Moorcockian style, you can only really run it with PCs at 30th level. Which I guess is doable but the lack of mechanical character advancement is a problem.

Coincidently I have recently been brainstorming a complete revision of the Ten Hells and just prescribing the basic devils was giving me all kinds of gip because of the gaps between the top and the bottom of the hierarchy.

I settled on Levels 11-15 for the (common or garden) Lesser Devils. The upshot of that is Asmodeus would only be a Level 26 Solo opponent...which is kinda where he 'should' be (IMHO) but it is a bit of a drop from his officially designed peers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Squire James!

I once ran the Second Darkness Adventure Path under 4e rules, so I was faced with coming up for an explanation of why Drow were level 2 to 6 on the surface, while the ones met later underground were more like 11 to 20.

What I settled on was pretty simple, if a bit illogical. Drow lose 10 levels in "the sunlit world" above the ground (and none of their special gear was magical). That same lady the party nearly trashed as a level 5 above ground can still be a badass underground at level 15. It kind of explains why the Drow never successfully conquered the surface world (or in many cases never even tried)!

Presumably, you can take this a step further, and have them GAIN 10 levels in the Demonweb Pits, so the aforementioned drow lady would be level 25 when rolling with Lolth in her Robot Spider Palace!

All this presumes Drow are never PC's, of course (which this Adventure Path strongly suggested anyway).

I totally agree with this approach, I think I suggested something similar with giants a year or so ago wherein the Frost Giants born of the mortal plane would be Paragon Tier foes, while those Frost Giants born of the Elemental Chaos (known as the Hrimpursar) would be Epic Tier foes...simply by adding 10 levels.

This makes the giants much more respectable foes for the gods in mythologies of the Norse, Greek and Hindu.

 

[S'mon]

I totally agree with this approach, I think I suggested something similar with giants a year or so ago wherein the Frost Giants born of the mortal plane would be Paragon Tier foes, while those Frost Giants born of the Elemental Chaos (known as the Hrimpursar) would be Epic Tier foes...simply by adding 10 levels.

This makes the giants much more respectable foes for the gods in mythologies of the Norse, Greek and Hindu.

Sounds reasonable - going back to 1e, the frost & fire giants are very weak compared to the Aesir & Vanir statted in D&DG/L&L. Even Surt is rather weak for the guy who'll destroy the universe!

Having drow on the surface lose levels is certainly a nice idea, my preference though is more to use xp-consistency and have the first drow encountered be mid-heroic elites; whereas in the Underdark they may have the same xp tally but be paragon minions.

 

[Stalker0]

Since we are OTIng a bit with the problems of epic monsters, can I throw a rant out there about the swordwing.

The swordwing, a "standard" epic level monster. But here's the thing, when you read the flavor, these guys don't come single file, nor in small groups. Its the equivalent of a bee hive of these things! Thousands......of epically powerful creatures.

How does any world survive that?