WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Bullgrit]

if you were desiging a horror dungeon to save guard your tomb, would it not look somthing like this?

Actually, no, not at all. There are much better ways for a high-level cleric/magic-user, (like Acererak), to safeguard his tomb. First off, why does he even need to protect his tomb? There's nothing in it he apparently needs, including the skull. Even the treasure is paltry.

The Tomb of Horrors is not a grave protection system, it is a madhouse of sadistic entertainment.

Bullgrit

 

[Remus Lupin]

Actually, no, not at all. There are much better ways for a high-level cleric/magic-user, (like Acererak), to safeguard his tomb. First off, why does he even need to protect his tomb? There's nothing in it he apparently needs, including the skull. Even the treasure is paltry.

The Tomb of Horrors is not a grave protection system, it is a madhouse of sadistic entertainment.

Bullgrit

This is exactly right, which is why it ultimately doesn't matter if the riddles and clues aren't fair or are misleading, since they are all designed to torment anyone foolish enough to enter the tomb. If it seems arbitrary and capricious, well, that's exactly what you'd expect and evil mad wizard to concoct. Just because it's said that Acererak plays fair doesn't mean he does, as you note.

 

[Hussar]

This is exactly right, which is why it ultimately doesn't matter if the riddles and clues aren't fair or are misleading, since they are all designed to torment anyone foolish enough to enter the tomb. If it seems arbitrary and capricious, well, that's exactly what you'd expect and evil mad wizard to concoct. Just because it's said that Acererak plays fair doesn't mean he does, as you note.

See, but that's the heart of what started all of this. No one is saying that ToH is a garbage module. It's not. It's fantastic and lots of fun and all sorts of things.

The issue though is that people hyped (as Bullgrit and others quoted very recently) this module as a "thinking man's module". That the solutions to all or even most of the puzzles in the module were possible to resolve through intelligent play and puzzle solving.

However, that's what's been pretty thoroughly debunked. There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand. No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap. If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose. Go home.

That's what this thread has been all about.

 

[Remus Lupin]

See, but that's the heart of what started all of this. No one is saying that ToH is a garbage module. It's not. It's fantastic and lots of fun and all sorts of things.

The issue though is that people hyped (as Bullgrit and others quoted very recently) this module as a "thinking man's module". That the solutions to all or even most of the puzzles in the module were possible to resolve through intelligent play and puzzle solving.

However, that's what's been pretty thoroughly debunked. There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand. No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap. If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose. Go home.

That's what this thread has been all about.

I agree entirely. And I think it's Gygax's introduction to the module that really set that reputation up, since if I recall he says as much himself. And truthfully, in his own head, maybe he really thought it was fair. But the fact that it really isn't is only a problem from a metagame perspective.

Since I have no problem with the characters (as opposed to the players), being tricked into believing that Acererak plays fair, only to find out that he absolutely does not. The characters (as opposed to the players), can be duped into believing that their intelligence and skill will aid them where others have failed, and they'll be wrong.

And as long as you look at it from that perspective it can be a lot of sado-masochistic fun to play!

 

[amerigoV]

There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand. No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap. If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose. Go home.

Hmmm, one can debate that. While not everyone did this, many groups then had hirelings, retainers, and other hangers-on (a posse!). Making someone else "touch the skull" sounds like "intelligent play" to me! That makes the "coin-flips" less frequent.

(just being a contrairian here - trying to keep the Great Thread going for as long as possible).

 

[Bullgrit]

Hmmm, one can debate that. While not everyone did this, many groups then had hirelings, retainers, and other hangers-on (a posse!). Making someone else "touch the skull" sounds like "intelligent play" to me! That makes the "coin-flips" less frequent.

When the hireling or retainer touches the skull, it rises and drains the soul of the 14th-level magic-user, (no save), who ordered the action, from back at the doorway.

Was that "intelligent play"? The NPC flunky may be sighing in relief, but the Player of the m-u is probably not too happy.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

When the hireling or retainer touches the skull, it rises and drains the soul of the 14th-level magic-user, (no save), who ordered the action, from back at the doorway.

Yeah, you'd need an NPC 'flunky' who was a mage, and higher level than the PC's to trump Acereraks hierarchy of soul sucking.

Edit:

It's actually enough just to have the higher level NPC mage in your party, since it's irrelevant who touches the skull. So, if you were an evil party you could just bring a caged cart full of bound and gagged high level mages with you.

 

[Hussar]

To be fair, they wouldn't even have to be high level mages. If your group didn't have a PC mage at all, you just bring a squabble of mages in a cage and away you go.

 

[Gentlegamer]

There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.

Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).

The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.

 

[FoxWander]

There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.

Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).

The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.

I'm sure we can do better than those two. I say we list the best and easiest ways to "defeat" Acererack without resorting to the random list of spells he's vulnerable to. Here's a few off the top of my head...

1) Scoop him into a Bag of Holding (mix-and-match with a Portable Hole as desired).

2) Scoop him into a Bag of Devouring

3) Put a large iron pot over him and Sovereign Glue in place.

4) Get a custom helmet with a solid metal visor. Attached a rod to the back (or a loop to the top- any way you can carry it while guaranteeing it's always facing away from you). Apply Sovereign Glue to the inside and capture the skull from behind like a big metal butterfly net. Now you've got a Demi-Lich-powered Death Ray! (tm) Shake > point at foe > raise visor.

Your turn...