Talent Trees - Your Thoughts?

[Connorsrpg]

Given the talk of a 5E D&D taking a step back to 3E or previous editions, I wanted to know what people thought of the Talent Trees from Star Wars Saga (often considered the 3.75 of game design).

To me they were ideal. Powers set out in areas of specialty. You could follow a Talent through and become a specialist or spread out choices, becoming a more general 'soldier' or whatever class you chose.

I think this step would be ideal for a new edition. To keep up with current games I would grant a Talent per level (rather than every 2nd), but include a lot of class specific abilities. (Feats and bonus feats could fill in the gaps). I really like the idea of prerequisite Talents for those further up the tree, rather than 'you must be this level to take this talent', or worse, 'at this level you get this'.

I feel 4E went too far in providing choice. Choosing from a lot of powers is OK to me, but I am not in favour of restricting attacks vs utilities and more importantly, there is little relationship between powers. Hard to build a 'path', or 'tree' in this case. When powers are replaced at high levels they are not advancements of what the PC already knows - they are often completely new, unrelated powers.

Pathfinder paid homage to this choice of powers with some classes. Rogues' choices are even called Talents. Fighters get more feats, and I like new choices such as Fav Terrain for Rangers. But I can't help but feel they didn't go far enough and offer up more choices - especially for classes like the monk, paladin (why not a choice of Auras - Auras would have mad a perfect Talent Tree). Domains as Talent Trees would also be ideal.

Powers that grant bonuses and extra bonuses to previous choices could also have gone down the Talent Tree path. Something rubs me wrong about this mechanic. Why not just more choice to get a bonus to a new enemy/terrain/instrument or increase an old)?

BTW: This is not a 4E vs 3E/PF thread. I like both games. It is actually more about the Saga mechanics. Saga seems to always be praised as the Star Wars rules of choice, so why did Talent Trees not take off? Do you like them? Would your ideal version of D&D have them? Has overly-specialised builds killed them? Has anyone done a fantasy version of them? (Something I might try for my ideal game ).

 

[Stormonu]

It's not a bad idea, I just think it suffers the same problem of 2E's NWP, 3E's Feats and 4E's Feats & Powers. And every edition's spells.

Proliferation.

It's fun to have options until you find yourself poring over 5-40 books for "just the right ability", where 1-4 generic options would have really been a better idea.

If you could design the system so it doesn't bury you in a hundred nuanced variations of basically the same ability, I'd go for it. But if it reaches the mess it got to be by the end of SWSE and searching through a half-dozen books, no thanks.

 

[Aldarc]

It's not a bad idea, I just think it suffers the same problem of 2E's NWP, 3E's Feats and 4E's Feats & Powers. And every edition's spells.

Proliferation.

It's fun to have options until you find yourself poring over 5-40 books for "just the right ability", where 1-4 generic options would have really been a better idea.

If you could design the system so it doesn't bury you in a hundred nuanced variations of basically the same ability, I'd go for it. But if it reaches the mess it got to be by the end of SWSE and searching through a half-dozen books, no thanks.

I suppose one could always go for a more simplified approach, such as in Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG, which more or less combines skills and feats and then has a tiered (i.e., novice, journeyman, master) approach to talents.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

I don't know the SW Saga system, but I'm thinking about tying choices to roleplaying for a long time. Like having some talents/feats/whatever being taught in specific schools. A character would have to become a member of a school to learn specific stuff. The school's curriculum would be like a talent tree.

 

[Connorsrpg]

@ Stormonu

Hi. Bloat is going to be a problem no matter what. But new/more talents fit in better than 'alternate class powers'. Much easier to add to a system with choice, than to add options later that replace the expected powers.

@ Aldarc
Hi. See, the part I liked about Talents, was no level requirements, no tiers, just other Talents as prerequisites - hence the building of a 'tree' if you liked.

@ Jan Van Layden
Hi. What you are talking about are basically boons or specialty feats. These sort of powers can work in a game, but I like players to RP where all their powers come from or provide in game chances to develop them before they get them. This approach can suit any new 'power/ability'.

Back to OP. So Talent Trees....

 

[Aldarc]

@ Aldarc
Hi. See, the part I liked about Talents, was no level requirements, no tiers, just other Talents as prerequisites - hence the building of a 'tree' if you liked.

Isn't that simply semantics? A tiered approach has the talent itself as the prerequisite for unlocking the further talents within the "tree."

 

[molepunch]

I am not actually familiar with Star Wars Saga, but I'll venture a reply. Please pardon me for any presumption or off-the-mark comments I may indulge in.

I like the idea! I think it might be quite neat though I suspect some may dislike how gamist it can come across. I'm tickled by the idea of tier-based talents. They are kinda like a technology tree in Sid Meier's Civilization or such similar games!

My Fighter's Shield Finesse unlocks Shield Slam and Reflex +1, a combat ability and an over defense upgrade, respectively. When he levels, I can pick either one or abandon the "path" and start on a different "tree", say, One-handed Weapon.

My sorceress started with Magic Missile. She just leveled and I had her take Evocation: Fire. Fireball requires Magic Missile, Evocation: Fire, and let's say one more: Arcane Magic: Area Impact (sorry, I'm terrible at coining a more poetic or clever name for abilities). Should instead choose Sustain Evocation, perhaps I unlock Disintegration Ray instead.


As I said, it is a rather gamey, though, as much as it makes me grin to see the "lego pieces of talents" fit together in a logical manner to unlock higher tiered talents. That said, it would still make sense in an RP way that my sorceress has to first master Magic Missile before she can even hope to blast a Fireball with a flick of her wrist.



In spite of the inevitable bloat, I suspect it might be relatively easy to build a character concept in that we would map out the talents "top down": start with the key talent or two you wish to aquire (by a certain level?). For example, I want to make a Bard who has Irresistible Charm and Song of Melora's Mercy, I just have to look those up, check out the requirements, and go from there.


Ooh, maybe some really cool talents require you to have certain Flaws to unlock? Blind, Quick Draw, Keen Hearing unlock The Surest Strike, a combat talent that allows you to either treat your next hit as a crit, or change a miss into a hit, frequence of use limited by X Y and Z.


I'm not a connoisseur of TRPGs, but who knows, maybe such a system already exists, heh!

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]
Yeah, you are probably right. I am not familiar with Dragon Age, and it might be more similar than I dismissed.

I just like the idea of similar abilities gathered together and feeding off one another. Eg Ranger Talent Trees: Camoflage, Survival, Animal Companion, Favoured Terrain, Favoured Enemy, Archery/Sniper, 2-Handed Weapon. Would just be cool to see a variety of abilities/powers in these categories and let the Ranger choose to specialise (to a degree) or diversify. Would obviously need to have a collective bunch of starting powers like Saga does to get you going

Much like the Rogue Talents, but for all classes.

[MENTION=6683467]molepunch[/MENTION]
Yeah, they are kind of like that (some have feat prereqs too to build specific combos like weapon specialists).


I really like the Talent Trees simple approach. You want to be this - it is in this Talent Tree. Even better, similar classes could share TT's. Eg Druids and Rangers choose from Animal Companion TT.

Saga classes are few and too distinct for this, but it would suit D&D. Saga does do this for Prestige Classes though. Usually a PrC will allow around 2 TT's from classes that often lead into it as well as introducing 1-2 new TT specific to the PrC.

So there could be a little separation of powers from class, but saves writing 'This class gets this power like this class'. ie: See the other class. Instead you would refer to a central Talent Tree and all classes that use it feed into it.

I picture these with Clerics and Paladins. They could both have a couple of unique TTs, but share another 1-2.

I also hate seeing great ideas being limited to one option, like PF Paladins. The Auras were a great idea, but it is stated exactly what aura you get at what level. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to choose from several auras, and advance them if you want, OR not have the auras if they are not your thing and focus on smiting evil with your sword.

There is a problem now that classes appear to be able to do too much, and it would probably mean giving some of this up for a solid TT system. I would rather PCs with a little less, but more scope. Of course YOMV, which is why I am asking for them

 

[Jawsh]

Here's why I don't like talent trees:

Talent tree designers quickly run out of interesting things to do. One or two power trees might be logical for certain character concepts. But then the designers go on to push other things into talent trees, trying to shoe-horn concepts where they don't belong. Or, they come up with bogus, flavorless talents to round out bare-branched talent trees.

An example of shoe-horning: you can't take the Shield Bash talent until you've taken Shield Finesse. Does that mean I can't use my shield to hit an enemy until I learned to finesse my shield? And what does Shield Finesse mean anyways?

An example of a flavorless talent (inspired by a 4E example): once you reach a certain point in your talent tree, you have the power of Divine Luck! Now you can roll twice and take the better result! I don't care what flavor you tack on there, it's still a really boring power.

Or, "this talent gives you +1 on attack rolls when you stand on your head and have just been healed by a healing power." It's a lot of bookkeeping, and the resulting plus just isn't worth the mental effort. And it's completely removed from the goal of trying to imagine your avatar actually being in the combat situation.

With talent trees, it's inevitable that there will be a glut or bloat of flavorless, boring powers just to get to the good ones that you want.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=17061]Jawsh[/MENTION]

Thanks Jawsh. I was wondering what people had against them. Now bloat, isn't really a solid argument, as everything will eventually suffer from bloat in the long run - even codified class powers. Alternatives and/or swaps outs will appear anyway.

However, your filling out a narrow or uninspired TT with dumb powers strikes a chord. I agree totally. Obviously TTs should be well thought out in the first place (see the egs I have given for adapting PF classes). And yes, this sort of bloat does hurt

Just for the record: TTs don't just follow one branch. Not every power in them builds directly off the previous. There are choices WITHIN the TTs too. TTs are groupings of thematically similar powers/abilities. Just the more powerful ones require prereqs.