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An Essay to Wizards of the Coast

pemerton

Legend
Can you expand on that?
I'll do my best - the expansion really means answering your other question:

I don't see skill challenges as necessarily metagamey at all. They require plenty of adjudication, certainly, but why would you say they're especially metagamey?
I think skill challenges have two modes. (Maybe more, but I know of two.) One is essentially the "complex skill check" - to open this lock will take 4 successes, to decipher this cryptic text will take 4 successes, etc. That use of skill challenges is not (or at least need not be) metagame heavy. But it also generally won't bring out the claimed virtues of skill challenges, either - for example, if one of the PCs is weak at lock picking then s/he will just stand back and let the others go at the lock while s/he keeps watch, or shines her boots, or whatever.

For the skill challenge to achieve the virtue of engaging everyone, then the GM has to frame the situation, and adjudicate it, in a metagaming fashion - for example, s/he has to narrate consequences for checks (both successes and failures) in such a way that they suck the other PCs, and thereby the other players, into the action.

And once you are doing this, the other metagame dimension occurs - which is that you have to handle your adjudication and narration of consequences in such a way that, when the final roll is made, a conclusion results.

A simple example is in that in the Essentials Rules Compendium and DM's Kit. In that example, at a certain point in the challenge the PCs meet, argue with and irritate some NPCs. Then they go off and do other stuff. And then the 3rd failure occurs. And in response to that, the GM narrates that the irritated NPCs turn up again, ready for a fight. Now, the fact that those NPCs turn up is not an ingame consequence of the failed check. It's not as if, by making some mistake, the PCs have caused these NPCs to arrive at that particular moment (contrast: failing a pick locks roll does, in the fiction, cause the trap on the lock to activiate). The reason the NPCs turn up is because the GM has, at the metagame level, decided that that is a dramatic way to tie together the events of the skill challenge, and thus have its culmination be aesthetically satisfying (even if a failure rather than a success).

There are many inadequacies in the way that the various GM guides for 4e talk about these issues, but one of the most glaring ones is that no where in that example do the designers actually explain what the GM is doing, or point out that the consequences for failure have been adjudicated by the GM on the basis of metagame (aesthetic/dramatic) considerations rather than simply reasoning out the likely ingame causal consequences of failing a skill check. Contrast this with, for example, Burning Wheel, which has detailed discussion about the importance of both intent and task in action resolution, and emphasises adjudicating failure on the basis of intent rather than task (so if I fail my Athletics check trying to climb up the cliff to stop the fleeing bandit, it's not that I fall to my doom, but rather that I don't make it in time). I'm not saying that BW is necessarily a better system than a more task-based way of adjudicating failure - my point is that it gives clear guidance to the GM on how the designers intend it to be run. Whereas the 4e books leave it all up to guesswork, intuition, and inference from unanalysed examples.

A further, final point about metagame, which also answers the question - why bother with skill challenges that aren't just complex skill checks? My answer - and it's not one I would expect everyone to share - is that they create "space". Because the GM can't narrate the resolution of things until the requisite number of checks have been made, the GM is obliged to keep introducing new complications, to keep pouring on the pressure, to provoke the players into having their PCs do things - take new risks, offer new compromises, whatever it might be - and out of these moments unexpected but interesting things happen in the story. Running a skill challenge in this way is, on the GM's side, again all about metagaming - at each moment, the GM is doing the same metagaming thinking that in the WotC example leads to the GM resolving the skill challenge based on metagame considerations.

And if a GM or a play group is not interested in running skill challenges in something like this fashion, then I think the mechanic has got nothing to offer other than as a complex skill check mechanic (and for complex skill checks I would not normally go above complexity 2 ie 6/3). But nowhere do the WotC books talk about skill challenges in this way, or how to run them like this. I learned how to do it by reading the rulebooks for Maelstrom Storytelling and HeroWars/Quest - both systems that have comparable resolution mechanics, and were available and well known when 4e was written. I think the WotC designers should be trying to do a better job of explaining what their mechanics are for, and how they can be used to advantage.
 

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Don't forget that the monsters are buffed too.
. . . The orc vs. PC fight in 3e is decided by who hits first, while the 4e fight just allows more time for strategy to come into play.

Right. To me, having 3x as many hit points on each side means low level 4e combat becomes a long-winded grind, one that you can usually walk away from if it's not working out for you. That bores me.

I prefer combat that scary, deadly, and swift -- like AD&D and low-level 3*e. That seems more realistic and more fun -- that old saying that war is hours of tedium punctuated by seconds of pure terror. AD&D and low-level 3e combat is EXCITING to me -- it's all on the line, every fight may be your last.

Whereas high-level 3e or any 4e is "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

Gygax said something here about D&D shouldn't have motorcycle helmet laws -- it should be deadly and dangerous. Safety rules are fine for the real world, where getting killed or hurt HURTS. For D&D, let me get my jollies with some virtual danger.

Oh, and I forgot, low level 3e improved on AD&D in the category of virtual danger, in that it SEEMS as scary, but character deaths are actually more rare, for two reasons: (1) Death at -10 hp, instead of 0/-1/-3, depending on the specific AD&D option being used. (2) Less use of "save or die".

I've actually NEVER seen a PC die in 4e, but maybe that's just me.
 
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Iosue

Legend
I can choose not to take any powers; but then, am I really playing the game? Might I as well not play any other game? By doing so, I'm opting out of the 4E-ness of 4E. If I'm part of a typical group, they're going to feel let down by my inability, because if 4E is run as its writing encourages, we're going to encounter combat a fair bit.
I don't agree that 4e run as written encourages combat, but much bandwidth has been used arguing that point, so I'm happy to agree to disagree. The question of the group is a tough one, I'm sure. However, that's separate from the issue of game design, don't you think? If it's a group that is perfectly fine with a combat-weak noble, then relying on BMA and Page 42 stunts should be no problem. If it's a group that demands everyone have a certain degree of combat optimization, then that's not problem with the game, but the playstyle of the group, IMO.

I agree that removing powers removes much of the 4e-ness of 4e, but where I don't agree is with the idea that you must have powers to play 4e. 4e is ultimately Dungeons & Dragons before it is 4e. The important questions are, are you playing the role you want to play, with the people you want to play with? If so, whether you are fully expressing the 4e-ness of 4e is beside the point.

But what you're saying above is totally correct: I might as well just play 3e. It suits my play preferences much better. And that is all I'm saying; I'm not saying 4E is flawed at what it does; just that what it does is not what I, and many others, are looking for.

And more power to you.

Some time ago one of the designers, I forget who, made it clear why feats and spells had to be balanced. If presented with a list of choices where one choice is clearly, inarguably better, there really isn't any choice. The other choices might as well not exist. If the choice is a feat that gives +1 to hit, a feat that gives +1 to damage and a feat that gives +1 to and to damage, there is no choice.

So, yes, I don't HAVE to take a combat power, but the choice you offer is a false one. It isn't a choice between two things that have relative value, but a choice between something and nothing.

That clear it up?
No, I'm afraid not. The design philosophy behind 4e combat is that everyone who wants to can contribute. No more Angel Summoners and BMX Bandits. But that's only important if everyone wants to contribute to combat in that way. What is "clearly, inarguably better" is relative to what you want to do with the character. It's a choice between "better in combat" and "better fitting the character I want to play". Far from nothing, the choice of not taking the optimal alternative provides the fuller realization of the character concept.
 

MarkChevallier

First Post
I wonder (and pure speculation here) if the edition in which one began playing -- or the game (if not D&D) in which one began playing -- has an impact on whether one sees 4e as being capable of supporting more "non-combat" story lines or not.

Speaking purely for myself, I doubt it. I began playing BECMI, and played AD&D 1E, 2E, and 3E. None of them (in my experience) had the stark emphasis on the combat encounter that 4E has.
 

pemerton

Legend
On the issue of combat-incapable, diplomatic nobles - that's what the lazy warlord build is for. Your PC never gets his/her hand dirty in a fight - all that work is done by his/her friends/bodyguards/squires. Mechanically, though, this is structured as you (the player of the lazy warlord) conferring benefits on your fellow players' PCs, including the ability to make attacks that don't count against their allotment of actions.

This game/metagame distinction is pretty fundamental to a lot of 4e - it will very easily support a character concept of "non-combatant", but it expects the player of that PC to be paying attention to, and participating in the combat (ie by using the lazy warlord powers to the benefit of the other PCs).

Obviously not everyone wants to play that game - for one thing, I imagine for a lot of players it might be at odds with deep immersion - but it does rebut the claim that 4e can't support non-combatant builds.
 

Dornam

First Post
I don't think the problem is with how many hitpoints players start and wether they can deal double damage and push back an opponent 5 feet once per day.

Most of the powers in 4e have almost no effect outside a battlemat. This gets out of hands when the PCs are to become so called "heroes" and all that means is that they now can push back opponents for 15 feet instead of 5...

4e did not expand on 3e and it did not streamline it, it created another game entirely, one that optimizes the use of miniatures and battlemat and also makes it easier for GMs and Players alike to play the game. Which is nice but not what a big part of the community wanted.

That said I find it highly unrealistic that 5e will be something akin to Pathfinder aka 3.75, because it would make no sense at all.

I hope that 5e will be 4e while retaining the "adventure RPG feel" by not focussing on miniature combat as much.
 

pemerton

Legend
Most of the powers in 4e have almost no effect outside a battlemat.
I dont think this is true, espcially for magical powers. These create various sorts of effects which can be used out of combat in the same ways that spells always have been.

And that's not to mention the utility powers that are primarily useful out of combat (which from memory is about half the utilities for wizards and warlocks in the PHB).

Actual examples of power use outside combat, off the top of my head:

*Twist of Space to free characters from magical prisons;

*Cantrips of various sorts to move things, colour things, warm or clean things, etc;

*Bedevilling Burst to cause waiters to drop their bowls of jello, thereby illustrating how physical force might be used to defeat a gelatinous cube;

*A fighter area attack power (Come and Get It, I think) to remain steady in a swirling pool of animated water while forcing loose stones down into the source of the spring, in order to block it.

Most often, though, players use their skills out of combat, not their powers.
 

Solauren

Explorer
Also, low level combat really should be 'he who hits first wins'.

Think about it. In a sword fight, the guy that lands the first solid blow wins. Real Sword fights from the middle ages resemble BraveHeart much more then they resemble a Star Wars lightsaber duel.
 

keterys

First Post
Also, low level combat really should be 'he who hits first wins'.

Think about it. In a sword fight, the guy that lands the first solid blow wins. Real Sword fights from the middle ages resemble BraveHeart much more then they resemble a Star Wars lightsaber duel.
Except dnd "hits" often often aren't direct hits. There are grazes, jarring parries, narrow dodges, and all sorts of other things that the system doesn't really reflect.

Cause you can take that exact point but making it about 20th level combat. Think about it. It doesn't matter how high level the fighter is when the braveheart sword goes through his torso ;)

You're better off thinking of the hit that drops you to 0 hp as that kind of hit, then still making the rest of the system work however is best.
 

Kannik

Hero
I'll do my best - the expansion really means answering your other question:

Must spread XP around and all that. :p

The best description I found for running amazing skill challenges was from an example of play during a WotC pre-4e event involving the PCs chasing some baddies through a city. Adjudication and creativity was the name of the game there. From that the challenges I've run in my games have always been amazing involved and inventive affairs...

Alas the "official" docs never presented skill challenges all that well. :p

peace,

Kannik
 

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