Class Balance - why?

About OT:
While class balance is important it is a design failure to make all the classes roughly the same in both powers and complexity. There is a need for a very easy class with not a ot of powers and this class may be weaker than another class with lots of powers as long as it isn't totally obsolete at anything.

About the recent discussion:
While it is important nowadays to make the GMs life easier, it is a design failure to take the fantastic out of a fantasy rpg in order to maintain the possibility of very linear adventuring into the highest levels. There is nothing epic about being able to fly for 500 feet.
 

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I 'd rather see them balanced using drawbacks (system shock, teleport mishap), though. Teleport mishaps have been useful as plot hooks. Alternatively, just move them up some levels.
I'm not a big fan of the drawbacks approach - Rolemaster uses it a lot, so I've seen it an action over many years of GMing that system - because (i) it just encourages the players to spend time and effort on building in failsafes (eg feather fall effects to protect against teleporting too high) which is (from my point of view) a waste of play time, and (ii) it pushes the game in the direction of Russian roulette a bit too much for my liking. But I think I'm probably in a minority on this one - a lot of people seem to like risk-based balance.

The higher level thing is more interesting. I kind of like how 4e handles this, but I think that it is another thing the rulebooks could do a better job of explaining. At least as I interpret it, teleport in 4e comes to play at about the level when travel between locations (or, at least, known locations) is no longer intended to be a source of adventure - adventure for paragon and epic PCs is going to be found on other planes, or in the Underdark, or in the wild places of the mortal realm, where there are no teleport circles to travel to (at least, not until the PCs discover them, at which point they become short cuts to the adventure location). I think the ritual to teleport to a non-circle is 28th level - so AD&D-style teleport is never going to be a big part of the game.
 

No offense taken man. What bothered me was the idea that people like to turn 3.x into a decision of "Do you like super powerful wizards or not?"
It's just so tied to the system that it can't be removed. That's the problem. So, inevitably the decision comes down to which one can you deal with more: Wizards who are extremely powerful and can possibly ruin the fun of everyone at your table, including the DM.

Or deal with the fact that Fighters have encounters and daily powers. I know for a lot of people this isn't an option since it's anathema to everything they believe in. Not that I really understand why. Though I spend a lot of time on message boards reading their opinions to figure it out.

I was recently talking to a friend of mine I hadn't gamed with in a while. He was mentioning that their group got annoyed at a couple aspects of 4e, so decided to switch back to 3.5e. Apparently, he is now on his 3rd character in 3 sessions, because each time he makes up a character the group jointly decides that his character is abusive and insanely powerful. He even has to agree with them. So he makes up a new character the next session.

His character animates the dead mostly. But they've been annoyed that the creatures he animates are more powerful than the fighter in the group. So, he gets to outshine the fighter with one spell. And he's only used less than a quarter of his allowed hitdice limit for Animate Dead.

I know the way he thinks, however. This player will be making a new character every session for the rest of time, since there are enough overpowered options available to him.
 

It's just so tied to the system that it can't be removed. That's the problem. So, inevitably the decision comes down to which one can you deal with more: Wizards who are extremely powerful and can possibly ruin the fun of everyone at your table, including the DM.

Or deal with the fact that Fighters have encounters and daily powers. I know for a lot of people this isn't an option since it's anathema to everything they believe in. Not that I really understand why. Though I spend a lot of time on message boards reading their opinions to figure it out.

Unless you are talking about choosing between 3/4e (we're supposed to discuss 5e I think), it doesn't have to come down to those two choices. You could, for example, redesign the 4e fighter without daily and/or encounter powers.

Personally, I don't like daily/encounter martial powers when there is no good (IMHO!) reason they would be limited to once per day/encounter. Most of the 4e fighter's abilities are like this. Some such abilities could work - I'm not opposed to them on principle.
 

I think the disconnect re: Fighter encounter/dailies is tied to how the person reading them thinks of ablities.

People who like them are more likely to view the game as if it's a story, complete with scenes and acts and so on. You see "Encounter" and "daily" powers in movies all the time - my favorite example is Iron Man 2, when Stark uses a whole bunch of rockets against some robots. They even talk about how it's limited use! These movies would be boring if the characters did the exact same thing every time they attacked.

On the other hand, people who dislike E/Ds on martial character are used to the game being more of a physics engine. Where the previous sort would say "of course you can only do that once a fight or once a day, it's narratively dependent on circumstances not under the PC's control and that is represented by limited availability", these people say "But if I can choose when to use it, it must not be reliant on external forces, so why can't I do it whenever I want?"

TL;DR People who are fine with E/Ds on martial characters are fine with narrative malleability, while those who aren't dislike it because it relies on narrative malleability.
 

Why is it that people keep implying that since I don't fins wizards broken I must be playing with a hand tied behind my back that I am choosing not to take the best spells?
Because I've seen the extremely powergamed Wizards. I've seen how powerful they are. Anyone who has seen them in action agrees they are overpowered. I've found that those people who don't find them overpowered come from one of two camps:

1) I've never seen anyone try that before.

2) People have tried that before. But we're going for "realism" here, don't you think Wizards should be 10 times better than some guy with a sword?

People who come from group 1 rarely KNOW they are from group one. Their playstyle is such that it just REALLY never occurred to them to try some of the super broken things.

For instance, I was discussing this with a friend of mine recently that I mention in a post above who was animating the dead and making his party feel he was overpowered. He said "And I'm not even abusing my powers. I mean, I was thinking of keeping a bunch of monsters around who have recently died and keeping them in suspended animation so that I could use Death Knell on all of them to temporarily raise my caster level from 7 to 18. Then I'll be able to animate WAY better monsters."

I reminded him that there is a magic item that makes your caster level higher if you cast spells near it(it's a candle) and he could probably get his caster level even higher if he wanted.

But that kind of thing never occurs to me. I'm one of the people in the group who is always left behind when powergaming. I don't ever think of increasing my caster level to 18 from 7. That idea is just unthinkable to me. So I know where these groups come from. Left to my own devices, my table might never have noticed the broken power levels of Wizards/Clerics/Druids. But the internet exists, and as long as it does...my players will read message boards, find broken things and bring them into my game.

They've already started bringing broken things into our 4e games. They are far and few between, and luckily most of them rely on a fairly shady reading of the rules to accomplish. So, most of the time I'll say "So, if you interpret the rule one way, you do 20 damage and if you interpret it another way, you do 150? Yeah, I believe in my game we'll interpret it the first way."

And the interesting thing the people making these monster characters never use wizard at the base they use cleric, druids and classes from the splat books. They have muliclassing down to a science.

Now using the logic that I see so many wizards are broken people use this mean multiclassing is broken.
Here we get down to the real route of the problem. Multiclassing is the single most broken thing in 3.5e. Wizards(and often when I refer to Wizards, I also refer to ALL the casters) are my second biggest problem with the way 3.5e did things. Multiclassing is my first.

I once made a character, that due to careful multiclassing at 20th level was a Warmage with 3 or 4 different PrC. He had a BAB of +17, he had a 20 caster level and cast spells as if he was a 18th level Warmage. He had the ability to cast spells in full plate with 0% arcane spell failure. When he attacked, he used feats to drop his highest level spells for 9d4 damage added to his attacks.

When he finished casting all his spells, he had a better attack bonus and AC than anyone in the entire party. And our group had powergamed extensively.

It was the point where I finally realized HOW badly you could abuse multiclassing. Especially if you take the premise that a single class character should be the "default" power level for the game. I outshined any single class Warmage or Fighter.

I've said it before in other threads and I'll say it again. There is a spectrum between balanced and absolute character building freedom. The closer to get to balanced, the less freedom you'll have. I'm ok with this. There's still a line I don't want to cross where everyone is identical. But people being very close to the same is fine with me.

In the hands of a min maxer anything can be broken.
Not anything. If there was a system that had no classes, no races, no feats, no spells, and everyone got the same bonus to attack rolls and all weapons did the same damage...there's nothing for a min-maxer to break.

Now, I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea. But you need to start there and work forwards until you get a system that is varied enough to be interesting but not varied enough to be able to be broken TOO BADLY.

I don't mind a system where choosing Rogue means doing 10 damage but having less hitpoints, whereas being a fighter means doing 5 damage and having more. I DO mind when the difference between the most powerful class and the least powerful class is 10 or 100 times.

The problem I find with attempting to balance a 3.5e-like system is that you are starting with a 100 times difference in power and attempting to balance backwards...VERY slowly.
 

Unless you are talking about choosing between 3/4e (we're supposed to discuss 5e I think), it doesn't have to come down to those two choices. You could, for example, redesign the 4e fighter without daily and/or encounter powers.
In this case, I was. But I was also talking in general. From a math standpoint, those are the two choices you have, even when designing 4e.

Personally, I don't like daily/encounter martial powers when there is no good (IMHO!) reason they would be limited to once per day/encounter. Most of the 4e fighter's abilities are like this. Some such abilities could work - I'm not opposed to them on principle.
There's no good in character reason for them to be limited, no. You can quibble(and I've seen people do so) about how it's very straining to put extra effort into an attack to do more damage and you can't just do that over and over again. But, when it comes down to it, there's no good reason in character to limit them.

But there's no good reason to limit Wizards to 3 spells a day either. Once they know a spell, they should be able to cast it infinite times. The answer only comes down to "It's magic, that's the way it works". Which isn't(IMHO!) a good reason that they should work this way.

If we're going to use an entirely metagame reason to limit spells to a certain number of times per day, why can't we do it to fighters? It appears to only be a matter of what things are called.

I propose an errata to the 4e PHB that officially changes every instance of the world "Fighter" with the word "Fightomancer". Also, insert a section that says that the class is a spell caster who has learned to channel magic in order to do great combat abilities(without even learning them!) that normal people just couldn't accomplish. But they can only channel some of the magics so often(like every 5 minutes or every day) depending on how powerful the magic is.

I have a feeling that would satisfy 90% of the people who had a problem with it, without changing a single rule. And it would keep the game balanced.
 

Here we get down to the real route of the problem. Multiclassing is the single most broken thing in 3.5e. Wizards(and often when I refer to Wizards, I also refer to ALL the casters) are my second biggest problem with the way 3.5e did things. Multiclassing is my first.

I disagree. Multi-class only between base classes and you won't do anything more broken than you could while single-classing. It's PrCs that are broken. I only use them like originally intended - as options I offer when PCs have joined an organization in game (or more generally done something plot related, they don't know if doing it enables a PrC or which).
 

About OT:
While class balance is important it is a design failure to make all the classes roughly the same in both powers and complexity. There is a need for a very easy class with not a ot of powers and this class may be weaker than another class with lots of powers as long as it isn't totally obsolete at anything.

About the recent discussion:
While it is important nowadays to make the GMs life easier, it is a design failure to take the fantastic out of a fantasy rpg in order to maintain the possibility of very linear adventuring into the highest levels. There is nothing epic about being able to fly for 500 feet.

Well said
 

But there's no good reason to limit Wizards to 3 spells a day either. Once they know a spell, they should be able to cast it infinite times. The answer only comes down to "It's magic, that's the way it works". Which isn't(IMHO!) a good reason that they should work this way.

If we're going to use an entirely metagame reason to limit spells to a certain number of times per day, why can't we do it to fighters? It appears to only be a matter of what things are called.

No, Vancian magic is specifically based on the idea that in-game your wizard can only prepare so many spells that he can hold in his mind simultaneously. There are, of course, metagame reasons to have the specific numbers, but the limit is something that exists in the game world.

(BTW, some class abilities in 3.5 are per day without an in-game explanation. I do find some of them annoying, and have house-ruled some away.)

Now you could come up with an in-game limiting mechanic for the fighter, like fatigue. If that results in a good D&D, I'm fine with them using something like that.
 

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