Monsters of Legend and the First Monster Manual

[Kaodi]

4th Edition really committed to having multiple versions of each monster. However, I think we can ask whether the particular approach to multiple monsters was adequate. For the most part, 4E monsters of a kind were all around the same level and operated on similar paradigms.

What I was wondering might be valuable for the next version of the Monster Manual is including the Monster of Legend version of many classic mythical creatures alongside the standard D&D versions. Or in other words: " This is the Medusa that Perseus fought, " or " This is the Pegasus captured by Bellerophon. " I can well imagine this would at least be a good additional supplement, but I want to know what peope think of making this dichotomy Core.

 

[Dausuul]

4th Edition really committed to having multiple versions of each monster. However, I think we can ask whether the particular approach to multiple monsters was adequate. For the most part, 4E monsters of a kind were all around the same level and operated on similar paradigms.

What I was wondering might be valuable for the next version of the Monster Manual is including the Monster of Legend version of many classic mythical creatures alongside the standard D&D versions. Or in other words: " This is the Medusa that Perseus fought, " or " This is the Pegasus captured by Bellerophon. " I can well imagine this would at least be a good additional supplement, but I want to know what peope think of making this dichotomy Core.

In some cases it might be appropriate, but in general I would like to see monsters of a given type stay within a rough "band" of levels. If you encounter four carrion crawlers, and you've fought carrion crawlers before, you ought to have a reasonable sense of how tough a fight this is, without worrying that one of them is actually a carrion crawler OF LEGEND.

 

[Alzrius]

Surprisingly, I find myself inclined to agree with Dausuul here. If I'm fighting a monster at 5th level, and it's a tough encounter, then when I fight that same kind of monster again at 10th level, being able to dispatch it handily is a nice method of showing how far my character has come...rather than finding that it's a variant that's conveniently of equivalent challenge, thus making 10th level feel like 5th level.

 

[Arytiss]

I think something I'd like to see is an ability to create encounters that can challenge a mid/high level party with just normal critters like goblins and orcs without too much number crunching on the part of the GM. It was theoretically possible in 3rd ed. (if very difficult), but virtually impossible in 4th.

I want Tucker's Kobolds back.

 

[Kaodi]

While I see your points, I think that there are two other factors to consider:

Legendary monsters never appear as random encounters, and they should be generally identifiable as exceptional on sight. And I am sure Hercules never would have thought he was hard done by because the " Nemean Lion " was just a bigger, badder lion.

Secondly, part of what I was thinking was that Monsters of Legend might not necessarily exist in the same campaign as their more prosaic cousins. When you fight the Legendary Chimera, it may also be the Only Chimera (which is part of, of course, what makes it legendary).

 

[Dragonblade]

I think something I'd like to see is an ability to create encounters that can challenge a mid/high level party with just normal critters like goblins and orcs without too much number crunching on the part of the GM. It was theoretically possible in 3rd ed. (if very difficult), but virtually impossible in 4th.

I want Tucker's Kobolds back.

Huh? Really? I find it very easy in 4e. The quick and dirty method is to just use the monster building rules to add the appropriate bonuses to attack and defenses, HP, and damage for the level you want and you are good to go. Maybe give them an encounter power to shrug off all conditions, or a couple extra action points if the level gap is great from their original level, but its pretty easy.

Or you just find a monster of the appropriate level already and just reskin it. Ignore any powers that don't quite fit but reflavor the rest.

 

[Arytiss]

Huh? Really? I find it very easy in 4e. The quick and dirty method is to just use the monster building rules to add the appropriate bonuses to attack and defenses, HP, and damage for the level you want and you are good to go. Maybe give them an encounter power to shrug off all conditions, or a couple extra action points if the level gap is great from their original level, but its pretty easy.

Or you just find a monster of the appropriate level already and just reskin it. Ignore any powers that don't quite fit but reflavor the rest.

It's not the same thing. It's turning a level 1 creature in to a level 10 creature to fight the party on an equal footing. It's not a group of level 1 creatures successfully taking on and defeating the party.

 

[Dragonblade]

It's not the same thing. It's turning a level 1 creature in to a level 10 creature to fight the party on an equal footing. It's not a group of level 1 creatures successfully taking on and defeating the party.

Ahh, I see.

Then you should check out my other thread on getting rid of ascending bonuses in D&D.

 

[Saagael]

It's not the same thing. It's turning a level 1 creature in to a level 10 creature to fight the party on an equal footing. It's not a group of level 1 creatures successfully taking on and defeating the party.

That's what swarms and minions are for. A group of level 1 creatures shouldn't be able to take on a level 10 party on equal footing. That's why they're level 1. Making a "horde of goblins" swarm, or a bunch of minions works well for that.

In order to stay on topic, I like this idea, but I think the way to do it would be to use something similar to how one can make a standard monster into an elite or solo. Add a template, add some powers, and presto, legendary monsters. I once made a level 19 kobold minion who was a solo creature to challenge my equal level party. It was certainly legendary.

What makes this a hard sell as a published book, is that legendary monsters are often campaign specific, and its hard to cater to everyone's campaign.

 

[Rechan]

What makes this a hard sell as a published book, is that legendary monsters are often campaign specific, and its hard to cater to everyone's campaign.

Not only that, but D&D typically takes "The Legendary" out of monsters. I.e. there are minotaurs and medusas, not The Minotaur, The Medusa. The only "This is the only monster of its kind" is the Tarrasque, and the Named Demon Lords/Prices of Hell.

As suggested, the best idea would just be an example of how to beef up a typical specimen into The First Of Its Kind.