the Jester
Legend
Not entirely true- there have long been a variety of 'devils' in parlance, some of which are sort of pseudopersonifications of a perceived evil, such as the blue devil alcohol.
What was the reason for the Demon/Devil split?
- Thread starter Rechan
- Start date
Not entirely true- there have long been a variety of 'devils' in parlance, some of which are sort of pseudopersonifications of a perceived evil, such as the blue devil alcohol.
darkseraphim
Explorer
Considering Gary's reading habits, I think it boils down to two distinctly different types of infernal creatures being found in a lot of literary classics.
On one side you have the lawful infernals; with Dante's Inferno (evil beings bound by divine law not to harm the sacred intruders); Faust and devil contracts; Paradise Lost and the sympathetic antihero Satan; etc.
On the other side are the demons. This is a little more convoluted. Gary had an appreciation for Greek and Roman and Etruscan mythology, as you can see in the chimerae, Orcus, pegasi, and more subtly in the manes and lemures. But it looks like his conception of demons mostly came from demonic bestiaries including an old French one I can't recall at the moment. These things were a lot more capricious and could be bound by magic circles, but not by diabolical honor.
TLDR - injecting two different conceptions of netherworld evil into the same game.
On one side you have the lawful infernals; with Dante's Inferno (evil beings bound by divine law not to harm the sacred intruders); Faust and devil contracts; Paradise Lost and the sympathetic antihero Satan; etc.
On the other side are the demons. This is a little more convoluted. Gary had an appreciation for Greek and Roman and Etruscan mythology, as you can see in the chimerae, Orcus, pegasi, and more subtly in the manes and lemures. But it looks like his conception of demons mostly came from demonic bestiaries including an old French one I can't recall at the moment. These things were a lot more capricious and could be bound by magic circles, but not by diabolical honor.
TLDR - injecting two different conceptions of netherworld evil into the same game.
JoesephBear
First Post
It's very much an AD&D-ism. With 1e, alignment was pretty much a cosmic template for the assumed default setting.
That said, Gary needed something to populate the chaotic, neutral, and lawful planes of evil. Demonic monsters have always existed in folklore, so he split them up in as logical way he could and assigned them different names for the same thing.
The tempters, decievers, and manipulators a-la Sauron became devils. The raging evil beasts a-la Balrogs became demons.
Daemons (neutral evil) don't really show up in the original MM, so they were probably cut for page count and the fact that there were plenty of fiends already.
Personally, I never liked the split. It just does not jive well with historical tropes, wherein there is usually one category of "pure evil" monster.
That said, Gary needed something to populate the chaotic, neutral, and lawful planes of evil. Demonic monsters have always existed in folklore, so he split them up in as logical way he could and assigned them different names for the same thing.
The tempters, decievers, and manipulators a-la Sauron became devils. The raging evil beasts a-la Balrogs became demons.
Daemons (neutral evil) don't really show up in the original MM, so they were probably cut for page count and the fact that there were plenty of fiends already.
Personally, I never liked the split. It just does not jive well with historical tropes, wherein there is usually one category of "pure evil" monster.
SkredlitheOgre
Explorer
Lamashtu got her Abyssal chocolate in Asmodeus' Hell butter.
My own understanding of mythology does not agree with that much at all. I think what you're suggesting is really a very recent development in Christian mythology (and my apologies to believers for referring to it as such). But if you look at the lore of other cultures of old (Celtic, Greek, Norse, Arabic, and the various Asian cultures) I think you'll find quite the opposite.
It seems to me that historically, mankind has viewed the universe as being populated by a bewildering array of wicked beasts lurking out in the dark. Uniting them under one barrier is relatively new.
Remus Lupin
Adventurer
"You Must Spread Some Experience Around Before Giving to Umbran Again." Would somebody spot me some XP for Umbran, for his dictionary delving work!
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
I don't know how much influence M.A.R. Barker had on Gygax (who never really quite got EPT), but I do know he influenced Arneson, so maybe a bit of his cosmology carried over. In EPT Barker had Demons of Stability and Demons of Change. Though he didn't like the alignment system Stability can be seen as law and Change as chaos.
Voadam
Legend
Devils came pretty straight out of Dante's inferno. They even have the same individual names listed in the AD&D MM.
In Paradise Lost the fallen angels get cast down into the abyss out of heaven and meet Demogorgon and Orcus in the Abyss as they pass down to Hell which forms specifically around their fall as they turn into devils. You get most of the Archdevils corresponding to Paradise lost as well with Belial and the others.
When asked on here though Gygax said he didn't take Orcus and Demogorgon out of Paradise Lost but out of occult type references IIRC.
In Paradise Lost the fallen angels get cast down into the abyss out of heaven and meet Demogorgon and Orcus in the Abyss as they pass down to Hell which forms specifically around their fall as they turn into devils. You get most of the Archdevils corresponding to Paradise lost as well with Belial and the others.
When asked on here though Gygax said he didn't take Orcus and Demogorgon out of Paradise Lost but out of occult type references IIRC.
RedShirtNo5.1
Explorer
I think demons are inspired by Sword & Sorcery sources whereas devils are inspired by Dante.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
With the three-way split of the plane Hell (Lawful Evil), Abyss (Chaotic Evil) and Gehenna (Neutral Evil):
Hell is a personification of Dante's Infero Hell. Devil name was probably chosen for the name of its inhabitants based on the common name Lucifer was known as - "the devil".
I'm pretty sure Demons were drawn from the Elric saga by Moorcock (with perhaps the exception of the Balor - I think we all know that came from Tolkein's Balrog). Again, if I'm remembering correctly, Moorcock's demons dwelled in the abyss, or were associated with that "place".
Yugoloths/Daemons were latecomers to the party, and their name was just a rip on the Greek word "daemon" - which actually has very little to no actual resemblence with the word we know as demon. Greek daemons were not evil creatures at all, simply conduits to the gods.
Hell is a personification of Dante's Infero Hell. Devil name was probably chosen for the name of its inhabitants based on the common name Lucifer was known as - "the devil".
I'm pretty sure Demons were drawn from the Elric saga by Moorcock (with perhaps the exception of the Balor - I think we all know that came from Tolkein's Balrog). Again, if I'm remembering correctly, Moorcock's demons dwelled in the abyss, or were associated with that "place".
Yugoloths/Daemons were latecomers to the party, and their name was just a rip on the Greek word "daemon" - which actually has very little to no actual resemblence with the word we know as demon. Greek daemons were not evil creatures at all, simply conduits to the gods.
