Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

[BryonD]

It's like soda, You can say coke or pepsi is good but what's the last time you had a birch beer.

There is a time when you could have said "Coke", but Pepsi would have been just another "birch beer". But without that name it had to make its own name. Pepsi did. Birch Beer did not.


Name recognition is REALLY important. PF doesn't have that. Well, it does NOW, just like Pepsi does NOW. But it didn't.

It did have system recognition. But OSRIC should have kicked its butt on that front. The other poll going says that 1E is a more popular system.

 

[billd91]

No one is saying that though. It would be perfectly reasonable for the inhabitants to turtle up, post more guards, set traps. All sorts of things. But, outright leave? And I notice you skipped the part about the other caves taking them out.

Yeah, outright leave. That's what people do, particularly when they're not heavily invested in things like agriculture and most of their defenders are dead. They flee. And when sufficiently concerned, they'll move even if heavily invested in the locale. More aggressive groups like bugbears and gnolls may stay and fight or go on the offensive, but kobolds? They're taking it on the lam.
By the way, I included other caves taking them out when I said "being picked off by another". So don't say something didn't happen when it did.

Yeah, and this is exactly what I'm talking about. Tracking several dozen fleeing refugees including children about 12 hours after they left. Yeah, I need an expert tracker for that.

Rearguard? Munch. Nicely divided forces. Just that much easier to take out.

For one thing, if you've already killed most of the kobolds, it may not be several dozen at all. And, may I point out, a lot of people seem to think that tracking is a lot easier than it really is. The entrance to the little valley should be pretty heavily traveled by all groups living in the caves, not so easy to pick out a specific trail there. Then there would undoubtedly be several hunting trails used by the tribes to hunt and raid, some of which may even get some heavy travel. Again, not so easy to pick out a trail of fleeing kobolds.

Divided forces easy to pick off? Maybe. That's why they'd set up an ambush rather than stand out in the open waiting to be slaughtered. Even a party of kobolds can be tricky for 1st and 2nd level PCs.

EDIT: Let's say you do catch up with the kobolds some hours later (and it would be hours, they can move quickly for small creatures and tracking too fast makes the task that much harder), the PCs will have had a full day of doing stuff, keeping them occupied. Who cares if a caster novas on a cluster of the kobolds? The DM has had plenty of time giving other PCs a chance to do things. It won't feel like it has been a 15 minute day.

Other wilderness encounters? Yup, right back to whacking the PC's on the nose for acting in a manner the DM doesn't approve of.

Now you're starting to make sense, but in an unfortunate way. If wilderness encounters are simply a punishment, in your view, no wonder you don't seem to grasp the play style we're talking about here. Wandering monsters and random encounters aren't a punishment. They're a reflection of a dynamic world. You may prefer to play a game of My Precious Encounters, but that's not the only way D&D or any RPG is played. It brings its own problems to the tabletop, not the least of which is a disconnect between what you're doing and building a concept of the game world as a place with a life of its own. If you go out into the wilderness (and that's where the Caves of Chaos is - at the borderlands between settled places and the wilderness) you run the risk of encountering things. A D&D world is a dangerous place. There actually are dragons out there as well as bulettes, giant boars, perytons, rot grubs, lizard men, giant bees, cryosphinxes, bandits, and a host of fantastic creatures.

Note how every "reasonable" situation is always the worst possible situation for the PC's. But, if the PC's act in accordance to how the DM wants them to act, everything comes up roses.

You think it's unreasonable for the kobolds to making things tough on the party adventures coming to kill them all? My job, as DM, is to do what the kobolds think they need to do and are capable of doing to survive the onslaught of adventurers that seem intent on killing them. And if that makes it tough on the PCs, too bad. These aren't fish in a barrel.

This isn't about railroading at all. This is about there being consequences for PC actions, about the world reacting to the PCs and the decisions they make. Take the pressure off the kobolds and they'll react, they may even plan something smart.

 

[Hautamaki]

No one is saying that though. It would be perfectly reasonable for the inhabitants to turtle up, post more guards, set traps. All sorts of things. But, outright leave? And I notice you skipped the part about the other caves taking them out.



Yeah, and this is exactly what I'm talking about. Tracking several dozen fleeing refugees including children about 12 hours after they left. Yeah, I need an expert tracker for that.

Rearguard? Munch. Nicely divided forces. Just that much easier to take out.

Other wilderness encounters? Yup, right back to whacking the PC's on the nose for acting in a manner the DM doesn't approve of.

Note how every "reasonable" situation is always the worst possible situation for the PC's. But, if the PC's act in accordance to how the DM wants them to act, everything comes up roses.

Choo Choo!

Bah, I'm done here. This isn't going to go anywhere.

I don't 'want' the PCs to act in any particular way. I want the PCs to do whatever they think is best in order to get the treasure out of the caves. And at the same time, I will be considering what the monsters believe and desire and having them act according to whatever best defends their lives and their treasure, both from the PCs and from potentially dangerous inhabitants of other lairs.

What actually happened in my games:

The PCs went to the west Orc cave first and killed a few guards, tried to break in further to the cave, but bad rolls and bad tactics resulted in a dead PC so the others retreated. The next day, they left the orcs alone (wisely, as I had prepared an ambush for the PCs with reinforcements from the other orc cave). Instead, they wiped out the kobolds and went home. The goblinoids across the valley took note of the PCs and sent out a group of emissaries to meet them on the road the next day. However, before words could be exchanged the PCs suddenly attacked the group of 6 hobgoblins, killing 5 and interrogating the last one. Another PC was killed in this confrontation and the PCs learned they had to be careful around hobgoblins. (PC group was all first time players) They went back to keep after this, much more damaged than anticipated.

The PCs decided to go back to the Orc cave again, this is now the 4th day, 2 days after the initial PC attack, so the Orcs were not 100% on their guard any more. The PCs were able to break into the Orc cave again and killed many, this time with much better tactics. Orc reinforcements from the other orc cave attempted to surround the PCs by attacking both within and without, but the PCs advanced through the caves faster than anticipated and were able to wipe them out piecemeal, though not without suffering another PC death in the end.

Day 5, the PCs encounter a wandering gnoll hunting party of 3, are able to ambush them, but still suffer 1 casualty. They now have a very healthy respect for gnolls.

Day 6, the PCs decide to attack the hobgoblins. They had learned about the hobgoblins' prisoners 3 days ago (by now the prisoners are all dead, the PCs acted too late to save them). They decide to lure the hobgoblins out of their cave by throwing hobgoblin heads into the cave entrance (they looted these from the orc cave entrance). A war party of 8 hobgoblins come out to investigate and the PCs are able to ambush and kill a few of them before the rest retreat back into the cave and lock the door. The PCs can't easily break down the hobgoblin's heavy door so they go to the goblin cave not realizing the goblins are the hobgoblin's underlings (lol big mistake). The PCs attack the goblin's front door, but the goblins have hired the ogre and put up a stern fight. The PCs take them down and break into the goblin's main living area. By now, the hobgoblin war party has tracked them down, and the main goblin forces rally for a pincher attack. The PCs come to within an inch of TPK but 2 PCs make it out barely.

... and so on. You get the idea. It ultimately took them maybe 20 days to finish clearing the caves of chaos and the surrounding bandit camps, lizardmen, and traitor in the keep. They suffered 20 total PC deaths too. But hey, they were all newbies and they learned a lot. They haven't suffered any deaths in the next two adventures.

 

[S'mon]

They suffered 20 total PC deaths too. But hey, they were all newbies and they learned a lot.

Wow; I once killed 26 PCs running the White Dwarf adventure Irillian, but I didn't think that sort of thing happened anymore.

 

[Hautamaki]

PCs drop like flies at 1st level; basically 1 critical hit with a decent damage roll will do it. If you are starting PCs at 1st level, I think you best bring lots of spare character sheets and pick a system that players can roll up new PCs with in 10 mins or less lol. 4th edition made 1st level PCs somewhat hardier so that helped. Though personally I like that 20 PCs died. It made the players learn from their mistakes, whereas if they made the same mistakes but still lived through it in the end as would likely be the case in 4th edition, they probably wouldn't have learned as much from the experience.

 

[lucek]

There is a time when you could have said "Coke", but Pepsi would have been just another "birch beer". But without that name it had to make its own name. Pepsi did. Birch Beer did not.


Name recognition is REALLY important. PF doesn't have that. Well, it does NOW, just like Pepsi does NOW. But it didn't.

It did have system recognition. But OSRIC should have kicked its butt on that front. The other poll going says that 1E is a more popular system.

To review yes it did. When Pathfinder launched it had brand recognition. It is D&D, lets not kid ourselves. That's what Paizo sell it as, that's what stores sell it as.

 

[Imaro]

To review yes it did. When Pathfinder launched it had brand recognition. It is D&D, lets not kid ourselves. That's what Paizo sell it as, that's what stores sell it as.

Sooo then wouldn't this mean every retro-clone on the market has the same brand recognition since they are, for the most part, sold on the idea of being just as much "D&D" as Pathfinder?

EDIT: Actually some might make an argument that a few are sold on that idea even moreso than Pathfinder.

 

[lucek]

Sooo then wouldn't this mean every retro-clone on the market has the same brand recognition since they are, for the most part, sold on the idea of being just as much "D&D" as Pathfinder?

EDIT: Actually some might make an argument that a few are sold on that idea even moreso than Pathfinder.

But Pathfinder isn't a retro clone. It was sold as a tweaked version of 3.5. Go To any game store and if they don't tell you it is they understand D&D 3.75. And Where's their credentials. Piazo was part of wizards publish material for 3.5. Pathfinder started on the 9900 meter line on the 10k race to fame.

 

[pemerton]

I think that this poster is relevant to the question of whether or not PF is D&D:

 

[pemerton]

They suffered 20 total PC deaths too. But hey, they were all newbies and they learned a lot. They haven't suffered any deaths in the next two adventures.

personally I like that 20 PCs died. It made the players learn from their mistakes, whereas if they made the same mistakes but still lived through it in the end as would likely be the case in 4th edition, they probably wouldn't have learned as much from the experience.

My preferred playstyle could hardly be further from this. I've had 3 PCs, in total, die in a 3 year (and now 15th level) 4e campaign, and each time have discussed with the player whether or not he wants to keep playing that PC. Two said yes, one no - he had an idea for a new PC. For the two that said yes, I contrived for the god of death to send them back into the world. In one case, this has ended up establishing a major story element for that PC, which has become a big focus of play.

Besides these 3 deaths, there were 3 other occasions when a PC could have died, but because the player wanted to keep playing the PC, and given the circumstances in the game, I was able to treat the situation as one of unconsciousness rather than death (this being a feature of the 4e rules).

If the player still thinks they have something they want to do, in the game, with their PC then I don't want to get in the way of that. I would find a turnover of 20 PCs in one adventure completely fatal to building up any sort of emotional or thematic investment in those PCs and the story that their activities are going to constitute.

You may prefer to play a game of My Precious Encounters

Yes, but I wouldn't normally use that description. (I've forked my elaboration on this point to a new thread.