Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

[Imaro]

But Pathfinder isn't a retro clone. It was sold as a tweaked version of 3.5. Go To any game store and if they don't tell you it is they understand D&D 3.75. And Where's their credentials. Piazo was part of wizards publish material for 3.5. Pathfinder started on the 9900 meter line on the 10k race to fame.

Uhm... technically Pathfinder is a retro-clone. It is a slightly tweaked version of an edition of D&D that is no longer being published by the company that owns the D&D brand.

As to your second point... I'm sorry but there's a big difference between using the products, work, goodwill, etc. that one did for D&D and leveraging it to better sell one's product, which quite a few companies did during and after the OGL era, as opposed to using the actual brand name. Pathfinder used the D&D brand name to succeed just as much as OSRIC, Labryinth Lord, or any other retro-clone did... and if that's the supposed key to their success why weren't other retro-clones as successful?

EDIT: The thing I find strange about this argument is that back when PF was announced many 4e fans claimed that lack of brand recognition (for Paizo and Pathfinder in general) would be one of the reasons the game would fail and/or not be as popular as D&D.

 

[Imaro]

I think that this poster is relevant to the question of whether or not PF is D&D:

Quite telling since the Dungeons and Dragons brand name is nowhere to be found on this poster... Just like with any other retro-clone. Also, I don't think that the question is whether or not it is D&D... it's whether or not Pathfinder's success can be attributed to its use of D&D's brand recognition.

 

[pemerton]

Are you seriously suggesting that "3.5 Survives Thrives" is not an attempt to trade upon the brand recognition of D&D 3.5 edition - books which even had "v 3.5" on the cover?

 

[pemerton]

The PCs went to the west Orc cave first and killed a few guards, tried to break in further to the cave, but bad rolls and bad tactics resulted in a dead PC so the others retreated. The next day, they left the orcs alone (wisely, as I had prepared an ambush for the PCs with reinforcements from the other orc cave). Instead, they wiped out the kobolds and went home.

I can't speak for [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and also I'm not sure that my views on this are as strong as his, although they do incline to an extent in his direction.

But I think an example of what he has in mind about "doing what the GM wants/expects" is provided by your orc ambush. Looking at the map that was linked too earlier, cavemouths B and C (which someone earlier noted as the orc caves - I'm following their lead) seem to give good visual coverage of the whole valley. It seems to me hard to come into the valley or enter another cave without passing within 50 yards of those two cave mouths. Why did the orc ambushers not kill the PCs as they were going to or departing from the kobold cave?

I'm not saying there are no answers to that question - maybe the PCs snuck in using camouflage under the cover of darkness (although the orc's infravision would go 60' in Basic, I think, and perhaps 90' in AD&D, which would seem to be enough distance to see to the entrance to cavemouth A, which is where the kobolds are, isn't it?).

But as I said, it may be the sort of thing that Hussar has in mind.

 

[billd91]

I can't speak for [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and also I'm not sure that my views on this are as strong as his, although they do incline to an extent in his direction.

But I think an example of what he has in mind about "doing what the GM wants/expects" is provided by your orc ambush. Looking at the map that was linked too earlier, cavemouths B and C (which someone earlier noted as the orc caves - I'm following their lead) seem to give good visual coverage of the whole valley. It seems to me hard to come into the valley or enter another cave without passing within 50 yards of those two cave mouths. Why did the orc ambushers not kill the PCs as they were going to or departing from the kobold cave?

I'm not saying there are no answers to that question - maybe the PCs snuck in using camouflage under the cover of darkness (although the orc's infravision would go 60' in Basic, I think, and perhaps 90' in AD&D, which would seem to be enough distance to see to the entrance to cavemouth A, which is where the kobolds are, isn't it?).

But as I said, it may be the sort of thing that Hussar has in mind.

Going by Hussar's last post in the thread, I suspect he'd have complained that a DM doing so would be punishing the players for not walking into his orc ambush like he wanted them to.

 

[Imaro]

Are you seriously suggesting that "3.5 Survives Thrives" is not an attempt to trade upon the brand recognition of D&D 3.5 edition - books which even had "v 3.5" on the cover?

Did they leverage the recognition of the 3.5 SYSTEM... Yes ( Just as many other companies did to sell product during and after the time of the OGL) Did they leverage the D&D brand name... Very debatable (especially seeing as how they couldnt use any of the IP associated with it). Can the success of Pathfinder be chalked up to "leveraging the D&D brand name"... I would say no since WotC didn't allow them to use it and had a version of D&D in print when Pathfinder was released. Again, this is no different than what every other retro clone has done and none are as successful as PF, so there has to be something else to it... That was what I was arguing.

 

[Imaro]

Question... How would a casual gamer or a lapsed gamer or even a non-gamer familiar with the D&D brand name... But unaware of the different versions or that there was a 3.5 system connect that poster to D&D?

 

[gamerprinter]

Question... How would a casual gamer or a lapsed gamer or even a non-gamer familiar with the D&D brand name... But unaware of the different versions or that there was a 3.5 system connect that poster to D&D?

Probably not. The poster was designed to specifically target the existing D&D base to those who unsure of the move from 3.5 to 4e. For a casual gamer or even a lapsed gamer, there still might be some level of recognition at least of the intent of the poster.

For a non-gamer familiar with the D&D brand, the poster means little to nothing, but these folks aren't the targetted market, at least not at the time of introduction of the Pathfinder product, as they were not where the majority of potential customers were going to come from. Rather from those already familiar with the existing game, and the intentions of WotC on the new direction for D&D.

I think the Beginner Box is Paizo's first venture to specifically attract non-existing gamer market. Paizo's marketing seems to be towards the most effective dispersion of their concept for the lowest dollar spent. That poster targets the large percentage of existing gamers unsure of move to 4e as being their intent. Non-gamers were not targetted, so the consequential effect to attracting non-gamers was small.

It was only later that the Beginner Box was created to target the secondary markets - which I think was done effectively, but we may never know for sure.

 

[Imaro]

Probably not. The poster was designed to specifically target the existing D&D base to those who unsure of the move from 3.5 to 4e. For a casual gamer or even a lapsed gamer, there still might be some level of recognition at least of the intent of the poster.

I definitely agree... but again this seems to be leveraging of system or mechanics recognition as opposed to the brand name of D&D...

For a non-gamer familiar with the D&D brand, the poster means little to nothing, but these folks aren't the targetted market, at least not at the time of introduction of the Pathfinder product, as they were not where the majority of potential customers were going to come from. Rather from those already familiar with the existing game, and the intentions of WotC on the new direction for D&D.

Again I agree... but since these people are fully aware of official D&D versus Pathfinder... again, I don't see how brand recognition is being leveraged here.

I think the Beginner Box is Paizo's first venture to specifically attract non-existing gamer market. Paizo's marketing seems to be towards the most effective dispersion of their concept for the lowest dollar spent. That poster targets the large percentage of existing gamers unsure of move to 4e as being their intent. Non-gamers were not targetted, so the consequential effect to attracting non-gamers was small.

It was only later that the Beginner Box was created to target the secondary markets - which I think was done effectively, but we may never know for sure.

I honestly agree with your points (which in all honesty seem to be supporting what I and BryonD were claiming). These were people who were fully aware of the differences between D&D and Pathfinder and I just can't see how Pathfinder used the D&D brand as opposed to system recognition (which is exactly what BryonD claimed and lucek denied) to market to them.

Furthermore this is why, contrary to his own protests, I thought pemerton's example with the poster was telling in that it draws on system recognition to promote Pathfinder... not the brand name recognition of D&D.

 

[Hautamaki]

I can't speak for [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and also I'm not sure that my views on this are as strong as his, although they do incline to an extent in his direction.

But I think an example of what he has in mind about "doing what the GM wants/expects" is provided by your orc ambush. Looking at the map that was linked too earlier, cavemouths B and C (which someone earlier noted as the orc caves - I'm following their lead) seem to give good visual coverage of the whole valley. It seems to me hard to come into the valley or enter another cave without passing within 50 yards of those two cave mouths. Why did the orc ambushers not kill the PCs as they were going to or departing from the kobold cave?

I'm not saying there are no answers to that question - maybe the PCs snuck in using camouflage under the cover of darkness (although the orc's infravision would go 60' in Basic, I think, and perhaps 90' in AD&D, which would seem to be enough distance to see to the entrance to cavemouth A, which is where the kobolds are, isn't it?).

But as I said, it may be the sort of thing that Hussar has in mind.

The ambush was inside the orc cave, they preferred to fight on their home turf, and I imagined that the valley must be under some kind of truce that probably has some kind of ground rules for the rival humanoids to not wipe each other out. Something like not leaving the caves with a large armed force unexpectedly seemed reasonable. Later on when the hobgoblins did it, the orcs were already wiped out so I didn't worry about it too much.