Heroes of the Elemental Chaos

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again keterys!

Well, given that in theory it might be _20_ encounters leading up to them, they'd probably need a good 40 different creatures.

I disagree. The whole 20 encounter lead-up arguably shouldn't happen in any game, and certainly not an epic game. In my experiences, epic adventures tend to work much beter as shorter, sharper affairs. Not long drawn out dungeon crawls (like those silly E-series modules that were just badly designed).

3-4 encounters would be fine for a typical epic adventure. More than double that and you'll run out of theme-based resources.

Epic D&D just never got full support. But I will admit that DMs that make it to epic are probably capable of making their own monsters, or modifying lower level ones appropriately.

I agree on this, but that takes us back to the point of why but a product if you still need to do 90% of the work to get the most out of it?

If you're more suggesting that the elemental lords should have been, say, level 22-26 or so and then used all the 18-25 efreets, archons, etc. Well, sure.

I'm suggesting that all the BBEG entries could be much better designed. The sole exception is probably Lolth who has quite a few resources within MM3 and the previous books - enough to make adventures in the demonweb enjoyable.

The level of the BBEGs is almost exclusively too high. They should be spread across the epic tier, not all bunched together into the same 31-35 Level spread that means you cannot use them until you reach the end of the game. So the epic tier is set up from its inception to avoid the personalities (Demon Princes, Archdukes, Deities, Primordials) until you get to about Level 28-29+. Its like a complete waste of levels 21-27. Its almost as if the game is saying, "well play the epic tier for maybe a year and then we might introduce some 'kewl' stuff at the end". The epic tier should be battering players over the head with 'kewl' from Level 21 onwards!

 

[keterys]

Hello again keterys!

Heh, hello, hi, and good day!

I disagree. The whole 20 encounter lead-up arguably shouldn't happen in any game, and certainly not an epic game.

Fair enough. One query there - do you advocate leveling faster (ie, one adventure per level at epic, with your 3-4 encounter adventure) or just toppling ~3 demon princes/elemental lords/primordials/whatever per level?

I agree on this, but that takes us back to the point of why but a product if you still need to do 90% of the work to get the most out of it?

Dunno - maybe that kernel (Lolth, Tiamat, whatever) is enough to get someone going on their own ideas, and they need that.

I'm suggesting that all the BBEG entries could be much better designed.

Agreed.

I will admit it's been disconcerting looking at epic threats for the first half of epic. Some people expect to just start tango-ing with demon princes and gods and it's like "Ugh, not for another 5 levels... umm, how about demigods and aspects!"

The sole exception is probably Lolth who has quite a few resources within MM3 and the previous books - enough to make adventures in the demonweb enjoyable.

Maybe - but even in her case, I found that level 23-25 was the sweet spot for adventure. At least you can just up everything by 5 levels to hang out with her when PCs fight her at 28-30 or whatever, but... though I guess maybe what you do is reduce Lolth's level by 5. I hate changing the levels of Named Uniques though (grumble).

Anyhow, I do think Imix et al certainly could have been much lower level, early epic fights. I don't see how it matches their mythology to make them so high level.

Zuggtmoy at 22, for example, is a nicely positioned level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Heh, hello, hi, and good day!

Same to you!

Fair enough. One query there - do you advocate leveling faster (ie, one adventure per level at epic, with your 3-4 encounter adventure) or just toppling ~3 demon princes/elemental lords/primordials/whatever per level?

I wouldn't level any faster no. But I would advocate using higher level encounters at the epic tier (although I'd nerf the XP by 50% to balance out the tier disparity).

What I have found is that the monsters at the epic tier are half as effective (or rather that PCs are twice as powerful).

So the difference between a heroic tier elite and a (same level) PC is about the same as an epic tier solo and a (same level) PC.

So you can either use monsters that are 4-5 levels higher, or you can instead treat monsters as half as effective:

ie. Heroic Tier: 5 standard monsters = typical encounter for 5 pcs

Epic Tier: 10 standard monsters = typical encounter for 5 pcs

10 standard = 5 elite = 2 solos = 1 super-solo

Secondly, you don't smply want epic encounters to be cake-walks. So if you are setting up say 4 encounters you probably want a spread of:

-1 EL, +1 EL, +3 EL, +5 EL*

*This will probably be something like a 50/50 encounter. Give the PCs a chance to retreat but if they stay to fight, let them know that you will kill them! PCs should not be able to swan into a BBEG's palace and just attack with impunity.

Dunno - maybe that kernel (Lolth, Tiamat, whatever) is enough to get someone going on their own ideas, and they need that.

Possibly. But why have 6-10 stat-block entries without making them all relevant?

I will admit it's been disconcerting looking at epic threats for the first half of epic. Some people expect to just start tango-ing with demon princes and gods and it's like "Ugh, not for another 5 levels... umm, how about demigods and aspects!"

The epic tier was designed and populated with 'filler' monsters. Instead, what they should have done for each Monster Manual was take 10 epic themes and made 8-12 monsters around each:

10. The Temple At the End of Time (Temporal)
9. The Spidered Mind (Far Realm)
8. The Brass Citadel (Elemental Chaos)
7. Palace of Orcus (Abyss)
6. The Pandorum Prison (Space)
5. The Graveyard of Swords (Shadowfell)
4. Golden Pyramid of Bes (Astral)
3. The Forest of Intestines (Feywild)
2. Iron Tower of Dispater (Hells)
1. Lost City of Zargon (World)

This way WotC could have in effect created a whole epic campaign.

Add in a few paragraphs on how to link one theme into the next, add a few paragraphs on how to expand each theme.

Next Monster Manual add another ten themes, with a further ten in Monster Manual 3.

By that point, instead of having a random collection of monsters they could have had 30 major themes that would cover enough variety and enough of a level spread to accomodate anyone's campaign.

Instead what we've got are a mixed bag of monsters and BBEGs with little thematic connection.

Maybe - but even in her case, I found that level 23-25 was the sweet spot for adventure. At least you can just up everything by 5 levels to hang out with her when PCs fight her at 28-30 or whatever,

I don't know if there are sweet spots for adventuring...though there may well be sweet spots for resources.

but... though I guess maybe what you do is reduce Lolth's level by 5. I hate changing the levels of Named Uniques though (grumble).

You could always lower her by 5 levels but make each 'half' a solo monster rather than an elite. That turns her into a super-solo.

Anyhow, I do think Imix et al certainly could have been much lower level, early epic fights. I don't see how it matches their mythology to make them so high level.

My current suggestions would be:

Elite 16-20 = Hero-deity
Elite 21-25 = Quasi-deity
Elite 26-30 = Demi-deity
Elite 31-35 = Lesser Deity
Elite 36-40 = Greater Deity

Effective +5 Levels (or just change to solo) if encountered on home plane.

e.g. Orcus = Level 33 Elite (Level 33 solo on home plane)

However, the way the epic tier PCs get a boost it might be better turning epic tier BBEG's into super-solo monsters.

e.g. Imix = Level 32 Elite (Level 32 solo on home plane), converts to Level 27 solo (Level 27 super-solo on home plane).

On Home Plane

Super-solo 21-25 = Demi-deity
Super-solo 26-30 = Lesser Deity
Super-solo 31-35 = Greater Deity
Super-solo 36-40 = Elder Deity

Zuggtmoy at 22, for example, is a nicely positioned level.

Zuggtmoy is one of the rare exceptions but I'd still prefer maybe 6-10 accompanying stat-blocks for every unique BBEG.

 

[bganon]

Imix appeared in a Monster Manual, not a delve book or adventure module. It might have been nice to have a little more guidance on what kind of sidekicks/generals he could have. But really, he's lord of all fire creatures, and even with the paucity of epic monsters there are numerous epic fire-themed creatures already in print (efreets, fire titans, red/volcanic dragons, and balors are all good candidates). I'd rather have seen just a mention of these, maybe, than have them waste four pages on several encounters' worth of "lieutenants" that are barely more than refluffed versions of existing critters.

 

[the Jester]

[MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION], are you basing your "effectiveness gauge" on pre- or post-MM3 numbers?

We haven't reached epic yet, but my feeling has been that with the MM3 changes, an equal-level encounter is a nice challenge, with EL +2 encounters coming in at "pretty deadly". An EL +5 encounter looks to me like "80/20 TPK", not "50/50", but again, I know that epic level pcs increase in effectiveness by a fair amount.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy bganon!

Imix appeared in a Monster Manual, not a delve book or adventure module.

I agree, that wasn't the dispute, which was that they added a whole bunch of stat-blocks to his entry but NONE of them are relevant when it comes to running encounters with Imix.

It might have been nice to have a little more guidance on what kind of sidekicks/generals he could have.

Agreed.

But really, he's lord of all fire creatures, and even with the paucity of epic monsters there are numerous epic fire-themed creatures already in print (efreets, fire titans, red/volcanic dragons, and balors are all good candidates).

Firstly, I suspect epic gamers are going to encounter quite a few Balors in their time. However, lets look at the facts as they stand.

Imix = Level 32 Solo Monster. To be tackling Imix the party probably need to be bare minimum 26-27.

Lets check out the three 4E Monster Manuals for possible matches:

- Rockfire Dreadnought...too low level
- Fire Archons...too low level
- Fire Giants...too low level
- Fire Titans...too low level
- Greater Flameskulls...L24 I'd keep them in
- Efreeti...probably our best bet for unmodified standard troops (L22, 23, 23, 25, 28), albeit most will still be a few levels too low
- Elder Red Dragon...L22 Solo
- Ancient Red Dragon...L30 Solo

- Chaos Hydra L22 Solo
- Beholder Eye of Chaos...L25 Elite

- Ancient Volcanic Dragon...L25 Elite
- Conflagration Orb...too low level
- Chosen of Imix...too low level
- Herald of Colourless Fire...L27
- Godslayer Inferno...L28

Base Troops: The Efreeti, Greater Flameskulls and the Apocalypse Spells
Elite Troops: Ancient Volcanic Dragon & Beholder Eye of Chaos
Henchman: Ancient Red Dragon

That could work, a bit too vanilla and predictable though.

...So lets say that Imix only uses slain Efreet as his slaves. These animated undead genie have their heads chopped off. Their bodies function as efreet, but their heads function as Greater Flameskulls.

Chosen of Imix (converted to L 30 minions) when killed become Apocalypse spells.

If multiple Volcanic Dragons are encountered together, as one is slain, a second grows another head.

The Ancient Red Dragon eye's can shoot/summon two conflagration orbs (converted L28 minions) per round.

I'd rather have seen just a mention of these, maybe, than have them waste four pages on several encounters' worth of "lieutenants" that are barely more than refluffed versions of existing critters.

Any designer just lazily creating refluffed versions of existing critters probably shouldn't be a monster designer. They certainly don't sound like one to inspire people with their design at any rate.

Jester - I'll get back to you in about an hour.

 

[keterys]

[MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION], are you basing your "effectiveness gauge" on pre- or post-MM3 numbers?

We haven't reached epic yet, but my feeling has been that with the MM3 changes, an equal-level encounter is a nice challenge, with EL +2 encounters coming in at "pretty deadly". An EL +5 encounter looks to me like "80/20 TPK", not "50/50", but again, I know that epic level pcs increase in effectiveness by a fair amount.

My playtest data for L22-24 is pretty extensive - so far, an N+1 with faithfully errata-ed numbers (note that the MM3 and Demonomicon aren't always so faithful, often still doing too low damage - especially if ongoing damage is dealt) is a nice challenge, N+2-3 is pretty deadly, and it's easy to TPK with higher depending on how much you put into environs and such. (See the LFR Epic series for the fights that I'm basing that data on)

So, I'd say that since the damage update, that's probably off by a single level, but largely on track.

It should be noted that (much like in paragon) parties can hyperoptimize defenses and damage and condition shedding and all manner of things so they need much much higher challenges.

Also, solos can probably be considered about 3 or so levels worse in epic than they're listed. Maybe more. Way too easy to throw conditions and penalties and just pile ungodly damage into them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Jester!

[MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION], are you basing your "effectiveness gauge" on pre- or post-MM3 numbers?

We haven't reached epic yet, but my feeling has been that with the MM3 changes, an equal-level encounter is a nice challenge, with EL +2 encounters coming in at "pretty deadly". An EL +5 encounter looks to me like "80/20 TPK", not "50/50", but again, I know that epic level pcs increase in effectiveness by a fair amount.

The difference is about +1-2 Levels over Paragon and +3-4 levels over Epic (thats post MM3).

Of course its hard to give specific cut off points but its probably something like:

1-6 = As Normal
7-12 = +1
13-18 = +2
19-24 = +3
25-30 = +4

The aboves would be for typical EL +0 encounters (albeit for parties that know their characters). Its also for parties of 5 characters. The effect is lessened or greatened depending on the number of characters.

 

[the Jester]

Hey Jester!



The difference is about +1-2 Levels over Paragon and +3-4 levels over Epic (thats post MM3).

Of course its hard to give specific cut off points but its probably something like:

1-6 = As Normal
7-12 = +1
13-18 = +2
19-24 = +3
25-30 = +4

The aboves would be for typical EL +0 encounters (albeit for parties that know their characters). Its also for parties of 5 characters. The effect is lessened or greatened depending on the number of characters.

Interesting- my game (pcs are about 13th-14th right now) still challenges the heck out of them with equal level encounters, but then the pcs aren't super-optimized, it's possible that they are slightly under-treasured and I ensure that my monsters are updated to MM3 standards. Also, I'm mean, and it's possible that my tactics are better than the players'.

 

[the Jester]

Also, solos can probably be considered about 3 or so levels worse in epic than they're listed. Maybe more. Way too easy to throw conditions and penalties and just pile ungodly damage into them.

Do you think the newer solos, with abilities that help with removing conditions and penalties, materially effect your analysis?

I'll go look at the link you provided.