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Expand the scope of mundane lore

2) Sneaking. Magic that just gives a bonus to sneak checks doesn't really do much for me. Perhaps the cloak of elvenkind (and similar magics that interact directly with abilities requiring mundane checks) causes enemies to roll 2d20 and use the lower check. Everyone with such a cloak is better at sneaking, but it prevents dedicated sneakers from stacking bonuses in such a way that they can make themselves immune to perception checks, etc. Using 2d20 as a cue could also help DMs trying to decide how to represent certain kinds of circumstantial modifiers to checks already being made. For example, creative use of ghost sound or other cantrips. Things like Rings of Invisibility break continuity with regular sneaking, and the fact that one simply cannot be seen is exactly the mechanical break necessary to represent it well.

I'm very much in favor of all low-powered magic enhancing existing abilities instead of serving as replacements. Knock gives a hefty bonus to open that lock (perhaps for several tries) instead of opening it direct. Charm Person gives a +10 to appropriate social checks for the duration. And so forth. Arcana Unearthed/Evolved use this technique to great effect.


But you are right that this is a great place to use alternate dice instead of a straight plus. A decent sneaker in an elven cloak with 2d10 has a nice boost, while an already excellent sneaker in such a cloak is really hard to detect. You get the effect you want (skill still matters), with some definite boosts. Perhaps in the mundane to magical distinctions, it could be roughed out like this:
  • Fantastical but Mundane: Elven cloak gives you 2d10 with sneak, doesn't help clumsy, untrained guy in plate all that much.
  • Magical Aid to Mundane: Cloaking spell gives you +10 to sneak, helps everyone in obviously magical way, as now that plate guy sneaks like a trained, low-level rogue in leather, and the rogue can do things that simply aren't normally possible.
  • Straight Magical: Invisibility - you are or you aren't. Skill still matters for sound here, but you are undetectable to sight.
I'd like for most of the low-level magic to be of the first two kinds. As you move to more magical at a given level, the costs go up. (Obvious cost in a Vancian system--the straight magical is limited to the 1/day or slots or whatever. You'd have different costs with other systems.) As the caster gains in power, they start doing some of the first two more or less whenever they feel like it, either because it is now "at will" or similarly frequent, a ritual that costs little at this stage of the game, or other such reasons. The straight magical gets more frequent, but definitely retains limits.

That leaves room for mundane equipment to operate, still growing gradually less important by character level, but parts of it remaining good backup options well into the higher levels.
 
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I'm very much in favor of all low-powered magic enhancing existing abilities instead of serving as replacements. Knock gives a hefty bonus to open that lock (perhaps for several tries) instead of opening it direct. Charm Person gives a +10 to appropriate social checks for the duration. And so forth. Arcana Unearthed/Evolved use this technique to great effect.

I definitely agree that magic shouldn't serve as an all-purpose replacement for any skill, possibly excepting the caster expending some pretty hefty character resources. A short term replacement that avoids becoming the obvious choice is also fine to me. Adding big numerical bonuses on checks usually gives me pause because, as I alluded to earlier, an already skilled person could use magic to become unstoppable in a particular area. (Hence why I favor dice tricks of various sorts that keep the final results of checks in the same range as the base bonus, but make it more likely to achieve near the higher end of that range). Magic that enhances vs. magic that bypasses existing rules usually have independent balance issues, and I think keeping them separate is usually a good idea unless one can smoothly scale the former to reach the latter in a very controlled way. I think the d20's uniform distribution generally makes this difficult.

For something like Knock, therefore, I'm OK with letting the caster simply replace the Thievery check with an Arcana check that does the same thing (basic functional continuity) as long as it is sufficiently different in the good, fast, cheap sense from normal lock-picking to not cheat the pure rogue. However, this version of Knock isn't that useful to a person already good at mundane lock-picking, and I think it could be beyond just being a second chance. For that reason I could see a letting Knock let a person make an Arcana *and* Thievery check against the lock and using the better of the two. Perhaps the Thievery check can only be used for this purpose if the caster in trained in the skill, to reflect the synergy between magic and mundane in this case. Either way a pure caster is pretty much are counting on Arcana to get them by, but an arcane trickster with both skills is actually getting some value added for their efforts without making them an auto-opener.

Other spells that traditionally obviated what we'd consider skills can find a middle ground in this way, in many cases building on from what 4e did with them with rituals. I would very much like it, for example, if something like "disguise self" was designed to work in a pinch, but simply could not replace a disguise skill without some serious effort. A good start, for example, might only allow the spell to disguise the caster as something they can currently see or with which they are intimately familiar. (Rather like teleport in earlier editions.) A person who already has the disguise skill, however, might be able to use it to craft more devious or flexible disguises on the fly (since they can direct the spell more firmly), or use both mundane and magical disguises for complementary features. Higher level versions of Disguise Self might loosen some of these limitations, but mundane disguise rules should be written in such a way that the two are complementary rather than in competition.

But you are right that this is a great place to use alternate dice instead of a straight plus. A decent sneaker in an elven cloak with 2d10 has a nice boost, while an already excellent sneaker in such a cloak is really hard to detect. You get the effect you want (skill still matters), with some definite boosts. Perhaps in the mundane to magical distinctions, it could be roughed out like this:
  • Fantastical but Mundane: Elven cloak gives you 2d10 with sneak, doesn't help clumsy, untrained guy in plate all that much.
  • Magical Aid to Mundane: Cloaking spell gives you +10 to sneak, helps everyone in obviously magical way, as now that plate guy sneaks like a trained, low-level rogue in leather, and the rogue can do things that simply aren't normally possible.
  • Straight Magical: Invisibility - you are or you aren't. Skill still matters for sound here, but you are undetectable to sight.
I think that's a pretty good list of categories. I was going to go on a mathematical excursion here, but I think I'll save it for a separate thread that I hope to get around to writing. That is because it is just as much about the sneaking/spotting skills as it is about whether 2d10 or +10 are good implementations of these categories, and because this thread is more about the concept than the details of execution.

I'd like for most of the low-level magic to be of the first two kinds. As you move to more magical at a given level, the costs go up. (Obvious cost in a Vancian system--the straight magical is limited to the 1/day or slots or whatever. You'd have different costs with other systems.) As the caster gains in power, they start doing some of the first two more or less whenever they feel like it, either because it is now "at will" or similarly frequent, a ritual that costs little at this stage of the game, or other such reasons. The straight magical gets more frequent, but definitely retains limits.

That leaves room for mundane equipment to operate, still growing gradually less important by character level, but parts of it remaining good backup options well into the higher levels.

I'm totally with you here, although I think there is no need to describe mundane equipment as more or less important by character level, since whether equipment is magical or not should be decoupled from level (and I know you feel similarly). Even in a world with high magic mundane options shouldn't be frowned upon, which I think is what you were getting at. By extending the reach of the mundane throughout the game it also helps keep back the feeling that magic can become humdrum through overuse, or is simply necessary for every little thing. If we can make the big things that break the (mundane) rules feel set apart, I think that will support the fight against some of the demystification of magic of the past couple editions.
 

I'm totally with you here, although I think there is no need to describe mundane equipment as more or less important by character level, since whether equipment is magical or not should be decoupled from level (and I know you feel similarly). Even in a world with high magic mundane options shouldn't be frowned upon, which I think is what you were getting at.

Absolutely. All I meant here was that the whole set of rules should keep "spider silk rope" useful well up into the levels--maybe as high as level 15 in a 20 level game. The gradually descreasing importance would not be by giving such equipment explicit levels, but by the natural replacement with more potent character abilities and/or magic. And mainly by gradual and natural, I mean that some of it would get replaced by something every level, but exactly what would vary a lot by characters. A 20th level fighter might still value that quality rope as a lightweight backup, whereas a 10th level rogue might think, "whatever, I can freeclimb now." Open the scope and power of mundane equipment more, and something will remain useful into the higher levels.
 

This could solve their problem in designing the Fighter class as well.

If mundane weapons were more interesting and distinct than damage die, weight, cost, and a couple of basic properties, then all you'd have to do to design a good fighter class is to make them better at using weapons than anybody else, and weapon selection would define the character.

Also, someone looking for a simple fighter could stick to just one weapon, while someone looking for a complex fighter could switch about, taking advantage of all the interesting features granted by a versatile mechanic behind mundane weapons (then later you could add magic into the mix as well.)
 

Rather than making mundane actions and equipment magically good, I would like to see most mundane (i.e. non-spellcasting) classes have ability to use (not do) magic.

For example, druids and rangers could be almost as good at healing as clerics, without casting spells. Not because they are way more gifted than the best real world surgeons, but because they can use the naturally magical herbs of the game world to the maximum advantage. Make healing potions poultices instead and require a heal check to administer them.

More powerful magical weaponry could actually require skill to take advantage of. As an example hack: in 3.5 make a +X sword work as a lower bonus unless the wielder has 3*X BAB - a fighter would need to be third level to get the benefit of a +1 sword, while a rogue or cleric would need to be level four and a wizard level six. Give a sixth level fighter a +4 weapon and it only works as +2, but he'll learn to use it better.

A master smith wouldn't be making mundane +5 weapons. Instead his skill would allow him to find the latent magical properties of the metal and wake them up.
 
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Absolutely. All I meant here was that the whole set of rules should keep "spider silk rope" useful well up into the levels--maybe as high as level 15 in a 20 level game. The gradually descreasing importance would not be by giving such equipment explicit levels, but by the natural replacement with more potent character abilities and/or magic. And mainly by gradual and natural, I mean that some of it would get replaced by something every level, but exactly what would vary a lot by characters. A 20th level fighter might still value that quality rope as a lightweight backup, whereas a 10th level rogue might think, "whatever, I can freeclimb now." Open the scope and power of mundane equipment more, and something will remain useful into the higher levels.

Great, we're definitely on the same page here! You know, I would love it if certain high-level parties could function very well on nothing but extraordinarily high-quality mundane gear even in a fairly magical setting. For me a classic example would be high-level infiltrators. They can't look too rich (or attract attention), and most magic items tend to light right up when using Detect Magic. Usually high-level D&D comes with a distinct lack of subtlety, or just layers on even more high-level magic to try and mimic it. That's an arms race, when n some circumstances being unassuming is the greatest power of all.
 

I can see a skill system with high modifiers allowing the user to far more than just standard mundane stuff. Taking Heal as an example. If the character has ranks, they can prevent bleeding out and increase healing under long-term care. With more ranks, they can actually restore lost hp. At really high modifiers or lots of ranks maybe restore blindness or ability score lost. However, I wouldn't want it to go gonzo though.
 

I just wish there was a better word than 'mundane' to be the antonym of magical. It just sounds so, y'know ... mundane. 'Natural', perhaps.
Magic vs. Mastercraft, for items

Magic vs. natural for creatures.

Magic vs. martial for combat ability.

Magic vs. skillful for out-of-combat capability.

There isn't really a good catch-all that I can think. Because Mundane doesn't work for things that are fantasy, but not magic.
 

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