"I don't like my Christmas present" -- do you enjoy getting treasure?

[Zelda Themelin]

20 or something, as if I would get many presents these days, lol, adults usually don't.

Anyhow with multiple magical items, I'd go for healing potions/wands time of stock items. "blessing of gods/science of alchemists" things, that aren't suppose to be so magical, whan quick ways of recovary that only rich people/adventures/people of fellow faint have access. Same with scrolls and oils that give you long term blessing for your weapon to kill that nasty vampire/shapeshifter/demon.

This is magic of high availibility but some things like nasty spells/poisons could be black market things, and in some cases only available from evil sources, though traded in black market all the same.

These kinda items would more likely be found carried by intelligent enemies and also used during the combat. Treasure would mostly be treasure and occasionally some unfound/unusable for them magic. Maybe something they keep as decoration as that sword they got from that paladin they killed, holy and all, maybe with skull of said paladin next to it. Lilttle product placement might do you good. I mean if it's useful why it's not in use. Unless it belonged to that adventurer eaten by purple worm (whence you might discover magical dagger poor adventurer tried to use to cut his way out, maybe you are more lucky) or something troll has eaten that doesn't burn and can be found in ashes when you scorch it.

It's not exiting and if it's locked in some chest (well unless it's just pricey looking chest and monster liked glint but obviously had no opening skills), or lying mixed with some gold and copper kind of cries out it's prior possessor wasn't caring either.

And once I run through as dm/or player these pathfinder modules and run into 25xlv 4 rogue/with same gear including (crappy for us) 25xshort sword +1 and 25xleather armor +1 it's really "doh". First it's ecomically broken and unrealistic. And it's quite useless for a treasure. And uninteresting. I feel better saying well made swords (better alloys used etc get +1 to hit/dmg), same for armor. Magic word in those items makes them terrible pricey. System lacks other way to give those bonuses. There are little tries with adamantium and mithril, but it's bit half-way.

Also those modules give way less money than they used to give 1st edition AD&D say, yet the costs hasn't come down. Well not all modules were ever good for treasure but playing enough of them you would gain much more than playing through adventure path. And those things don't give proper magic, you get some +2 bracers maybe, all wonderous items are really low and when found they are kinda crappy for level you find them, or not really good at all for your character class.

Actually rulewise magic bonuses are easier to control when you don't allow all minor stuff to combine, but give something really major. And if they want magic shop to craft it for them, make them quest for "shopping list", dust from dead vampire, teeth of red dragon, black lotus of swamp of horrors or the like.

D&D characters don't work with higher lv mobs if they don't get those bonuses from something. But you don't have to make it all "magic". Cheep way doesn't really require that many house rules. Real steel weapons used to be great secret of our world. And it sure is tougher than copper or iron. D&D kinda decide to forget that and go for magic and better materials.

It's far more interesting to give your sword cool magical powers by dipping in some pool on that mountain where god of war once called his angels to fight of the roces of chaos.
Or something...

 

[the Jester]

I think what's going on is the same reason Christmas presents are mostly a waste of money. It's just so much more satisfying to shop for yourself than to have someone else guess what you think is cool. Magic items are a fun part of D&D for me -- but only to browse through and buy from the DMG. When the DM gives me usable magic items, I'm actually kind of disappointed because I won't be getting gold to buy stuff I really want.

Anyone else feel this way? Or have tips to make getting treasure exciting? I'm thinking the best way to do it is to make the treasure plot-related, like the goblin king's crown, so it will be special for that reason.

The biggest tip I can give you is to stop allowing pcs to buy magic items.

 

[Mercurius]

It is a good theory and one that is basically true, I think. But let's explore it a bit further and, through better understanding the underlying psychology at work, hopefully come to an approach that would better "bring the magic back" to finding magic items.

I have two daughters, ages 3 and 6. For them receiving gifts is (still/for now) a magical thing. Opening presents on Christmas morning is just wonderful - for them and for my wife and I. But my wife and I haven't bought each other Christmas presents the last couple years; we get money from our parents and spend that on what we want. We've been married and neither are sentimental enough to deny the basic truth that we're happier buying ourselves what we want (although we do still, on occasion, buy each other gifts - I love getting her a piece of jewelry every so often, but I prefer that it is spontaneous and a surprise, which also makes it more pleasurable for her).

Back to my daughters. Where things start going wrong (so to speak), imo, is when they receive too many gifts. They're actually pretty good about this, but we're watching for signs of "looking for the next gift before the current one has even been fully unwrapped." The older they get, the more likely this is to occur; and then, when they become surly pre-teens, they'll be really picky and probably not like anything we get them, at least for a time.

All of this points to the idea that the joy of giving and receiving a gift has less to do with the thing than it does to do with the experience. My wife can (and, unfortunately, does) buy whatever shoes she wants, whatever item of clothing that strikes her fancy, but she rarely buys herself jewelry, which is more of my domain and, in some sense, represents how I feel about her, how beautiful she is to me, and that she is my "queen" worth of adorning with "jewels." In other words, the symbolism is what brings it to life (coupled, of course, with an aesthetically appealing object).

For a child, the joy of receiving a gift is a combination of surprise and the fun that it will bring them, how it will inspire their imagination. When this fun/pleasure/imaginative stimulation becomes less tied to objects, it loses some of its vitality. In adolescence this is transferred from the physical world ("ooh, shiny new toy!") to the relational world ("I love my friends"). As adults it becomes more about achievement and actualization and creation ("I just finished the merger/novel/art project" or "I love seeing my children grow").

I think all of this is related to the feeling that many D&D players share that magic items have lost their magic, especially in 4E. Part of this is due to the inevitable shift that occurs from childhood to adolescence to adulthood. But another part is more workable, and is due to a combination of the mechanics of 4E that turn what could have been interesting items into further modifiers with relatively boring daily powers, and the "buy what you want" approach that came into vogue with 3E. We'll come back to that in a moment.

The bulk of D&D players have grown up. I remember poring over the artifacts list in the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide back when I was 11-years old and getting a tingling feeling. Sword of Kas. Eye of Vecna. Rod of Seven Parts. The Teeth of Dahlver-Nar. Heward's Mystical Organ (ahem!). Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty. (what the hell is "jacinth", anyways?). Actually, when I look over that list (page 124), I still get a bit of tingling...and I think that's it right there, and proves that the wonder experience of childhood is not lost, just covered up with more pressing concerns.

But in more practical terms, why is that artifacts seem more magical than mundane items? I think the bulk of it is that they have interesting back stories, they are drenched in myth and mystery, they inspire that sense of wonder because they are nested within an imaginative landscape and setting. A +2 flaming longsword is useful but rather boring in and of itself. The Sword of Kas? Much more interesting, because you want to know who Kas was, and once you do, it leads down a rabbit hole into another time and place, whereas the +2 flaming longsword is a finite concept that "ends" when you know everything that it can do.

So that is the key: the story, the myth and legend, brings the artifact alive, and nests it within a living world, whereas the game-term oriented magic item is a finite concept. It is a stat modifier and has no story in and of itself.

I've got a couple practical suggestions that might help, and they are based upon what I'm working on for an upcoming campaign. I'm seeing magic items as in three general groups:

1. "Lesser" items that have a limited charge of some kind. These are items that have been created in the modern era, a time in which the crafting of "greater" items has been lost. Modern mages have tried to reverse-engineer the ancient items that have been found. What happens is that they are less powerful and less lasting; some even break apart after their charge is used up - the physical object can only hold the magic so long, which weakens it. These items can be found in Ye Olde Magick Shoppe and are the type that stack with bonuses, as well as most "common" and a few "uncommon" items in 4E.
2. "Greater" items (or minor artifacts) are more powerful, permanent and quite rare. All of them have stories, all are very old - they were created at least a 1,000 years ago in what was the Golden Age of the world, when mage lords ruled the land. Consider these to be the equivalent of minor artifacts. Greater magic items are more interesting and less decipherable to the players. Most have multiple powers, some of which "unlock" at higher levels or, perhaps, when the character is under duress. An Arcana check cannot know everything a greater magic item does - it can only get a sense of it, and only of its "surface" power.
3. "True Artifacts" are a larger part of the game. As I said, the greater magic items are essentially minor artifacts and treated as such. But there are also truly unique and powerful items with long stories and, perhaps, sentience (maybe the major artifacts are items of the past age in which a mage lord fused his or her soul so as to attain a kind of immortality, and he/she seeks to take over the body of the character that uses the item...)

Anyone, sorry for the long diatribe. Hopefully it is helpful!

 

[Is_907]

One of the biggest reasons I love getting magic items is that I don't know what it is until I screw with it.

My least favourite DM habit is to hand you a card or page number with the stats for your magic items. Takes all the fun out of it.

I need to, by trial and error, research, consultation of sages/wizards, casting of spells discover what the item does.
Or, discover that it's cursed, and I've lost a hand or ear or something. Or that I'm forever doomed to repeat the last word of every sentence sentence.


THAT is what makes magic items fun.

 

[El Mahdi]

I love finding or aquiring magic items, even if, and many times especially if, they are weird or interesting items other than weapons, armor, protection devices, etc. I loved items like Murlynd's Magic Spoon, and even once had a character commission a magic item, a Horn of Ventriloquism (he was a Gnome...).

However, concerning this:

People blame 3.5 for letting you pick your item out of the book and buy it in the magic shop so there's no mystery...

I don't know if people do or don't do this, but I know for me I don't. However, in any game I've ever run or played in, I've never seen it 3E/3.5E played where players could pick their own magic items or just buy them at a magic store. Magic Items were always the perview and perogative of the DM, and the DM only.

But, maybe that's why I do find magic items so...well...Magical.

 

[Piratecat]

I want an endless bag of rats. I want the most comfortable pants in the world. I want swords that talk to you in unknown tongues, and shields that sometimes attract every arrow in the room to save your friends, and shimmering gems that do things I can't quite understand.

I don't want to look down an endless list, spend money, and have a pile of statistics.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I do like being surprised by useful loot, whether it's something from the item lists or some special snowflake item. But IME too many DMs don't drop useful loot.

And 'useful' often means those +X items scorned by many of us. I actually scorn them too, but D&D has been built around them from day one. So while I don't like that I need those +X items, they are much more exciting than another Quaal's Magic Snow Globe. Because that snow globe's will be forgotten until I have a chance to sell it or trade it for something I really want and need.

A lot of the problem can be attributed to random loot tables, which I detest as a lazy DM crutch. It's not that I love combing through the item lists looking for that perfect item -- because I find that tedious -- but picking useful items is easy. First cover those +X items, then follow up with the cool items -- the flaming swords (or the talking cloaks, if you're a really creative DM). Easy as pie!

So for me it goes 'Being suprised by useful loot' >> 'Wish listing or shopping at Magic Mart' >> 'Being surprised by crap loot'.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I think what's going on is the same reason Christmas presents are mostly a waste of money.

And I totally agree. I don't even buy Xmas gifts anymore, and I ask people to return the favor. (Most still buy me something though.)

If you and your group like buying gifts for yourselves, I say give gift cards. Make loot 90% coins, or create a spell that allows the caster to transform an item's magical energy into a new type. (Don't like that newly discovered ring of fire protection? Make it a ring of displacement!)

 

[S'mon]

So for me it goes 'Being suprised by useful loot' >> 'Wish listing or shopping at Magic Mart' >> 'Being surprised by crap loot'.

Where does "not getting anything" come in, there?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Where does "not getting anything" come in, there?

I've never played a D&D game with no loot at all, but I suppose such a situation would follow close behind the crap loot situation.

If I collect enough crap, I might at least be able to sell and save enough to buy something eventually useful. Or pay an elf to be my torch-bearer.