I'll see to each there own, but IMHO I see way too much ME vs THEM mentality in some of these posts about DMing. To me the entire point is to tell a collaborative story and for everyone to have fun. Yes the 15-minute day can be annoying but there are plenty of ways to avoid it without it becoming adversarial.
Rule of Three 2/28
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
- Start date
Balesir
Adventurer
Such as (starting from a 4E base, but it could work with any system):
- Have either xp earned or tokens given after each encounter (combat or non-combat) determine how much resource can be replenished at a long rest. Resting after just one encounter only replenishes a portion of the resources; a sliding/triangle number scale would work well, here.
OR
- Have xp awarded reduced if the long rest is taken when only a small quantity of xp has been earned. Allow "sleeping" without, necessarily, triggering a "long rest".
Just for example.
This is "dealing with the problem via the Social contract". You have decided that resting frequently, however optimal it might be in the game world or system-wise, is "bad play". It could work, but it doesn't represent either a better system or a more coherent world.
If you give your players such a tight schedule to keep, I admire them for keeping up.
If she has Greater Teleport and Rope Trick to allow resting as and when convenient, why would she need to take risks or stint on the overkill?
As I said - you can use DM fiat and all that crap all you like to "fix" this, but why should I have to when I could just pick a better system?
Why is my DM decision labelled hamfisting or break the sandbox? You do realize the DM is the arbiter in the sandbox right?
Lets justify the story for the player, since it seems you'd be the player asking "why do monsters have brains?". When my players fall asleep in enemy territory its entirely possible that the kobolds find them, hear them, have ways to detect then (e.g. peepholes or other means). Its entirely possible that they recognize the characters are a powerful force and get reinforcements (friends, allies, a band that was out hunting, things they could summon, resources they wouldnt be able to use without advanced warning, etc).
I try to play my monsters intelligently, in my sandbox the npcs dont wait to be killed, and they go about life if you let them. If my PCs are stupid enough to fall asleep in the hallway the monsters react. I know of late its been fashionable to give the PCs a million hitpoints and let them be the stars every moment, but in my game they have to play smart to win, falling asleep in an occupied lair is generally not smart.
If you prefer endless rooms where monsters are simply waiting, and there are no alarms or defenses, then I suggest you play H1-H3, it seems to be fun for a certain crowd, but not mine. We always hear about other adventurers in D&D, but it seems some players/DMs think monsters have never met them and that this is the first time the Kobolds have been attacked. In my campaign, it generally isnt, if you want to suprise a monster, you actually have to try and do that. Walking in thru the front door and falling asleep, sorry they are prepared for that approach.
There are some situations where the 15 minute work day is applicable, and even warranted, but the vast majority of the situations that I hear it being used is simply bad DMing, and bad adventure design (which I may add is exactly what the article we are talking about stated).
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Hussar
Legend
You can justify just about anything after the fact. But, the basic point is, the ONLY reason that an extra 20 kobolds dogpile the PC's is because you're getting out the punishment stick to force your players to accept your playstyle. Sure, you can come up with 15 different in game explanations, but, again, that's just covering up what your intention is.
The players want to use 15 MAD. You don't like 15 MAD. So, to prevent them from using the tactic, you simply manipulate the environment to smack them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
See, you keep repeating "falling asleep in an occupied lair" as if that's the issue. Yeah, you're right, if the players are entirely brain dead, then they should get beat upon. But, there's a million different ways to avoid "sleeping in the hallway" without going down the road of that strawman. Give the PC's a million HP indeed.
Look, you've solved the problem with the 15 MAD your way. I solved it too in my group - ejecting Vancian casting through the use of healing wands and Reserve Feats pretty much puts paid to the whole 15 MAD issue. All without having to resort to deus ex machina magically importing scores of enemies that didn't exist before the PC's went to sleep and wouldn't exist if the PC's had of pushed on.
Its not a strawman. If they do it properly its fine. I've had players go to elaborate lengths to make sure they are safe, go into leomunds hut, retreat, set a watch, ask repeatedly if they sense any time issue in the lair, it most cases these are fine, and not a problem. (Although even a tiny hut can be ambushed, and even an encounter that doesnt appear to be time based, can be).
What I don't get is how this is some big problem in D&D mechanics. Its a problem in D&D adventures and DMing. If your players are doing it properly in adventures where its applicable, fine! If you dont like it change the nature of your adventures. This assumption that that the world is full of moronic monsters with treasures waiting for your to steal their stuff and no ability to detect your intention if you dont do it properly is silly.
keterys
First Post
It is a problem that the _mechanics_ encourage it.
It is a problem that the _mechanics_ are balanced around the concept that one character uses their resources sparingly, when the _mechanics_ do not enforce any such restriction.
As in, someone literally is going 'Well, character A is doing 10 damage per round, every round, all day' 'Character B is only doing their cool stuff in 10 rounds, and the average day has, what, 30 rounds? So let's say they do 30 damage in each of those 10 rounds"
And then you have a 10 round day. Or a _5_ round day, in which character B actually deals 50 damage per round. (yay Quicken, yay buffs, etc)
That's all system, not the adventure. Plenty of other systems dodge that problem, quite capably, by not having that mechanic in place.
The trick is that good (DM/play)ing and many options used in adventure design can mitigate or even avoid the flaw entirely. But that doesn't make the problem with the adventure.
It is a problem that the _mechanics_ are balanced around the concept that one character uses their resources sparingly, when the _mechanics_ do not enforce any such restriction.
As in, someone literally is going 'Well, character A is doing 10 damage per round, every round, all day' 'Character B is only doing their cool stuff in 10 rounds, and the average day has, what, 30 rounds? So let's say they do 30 damage in each of those 10 rounds"
And then you have a 10 round day. Or a _5_ round day, in which character B actually deals 50 damage per round. (yay Quicken, yay buffs, etc)
That's all system, not the adventure. Plenty of other systems dodge that problem, quite capably, by not having that mechanic in place.
The trick is that good (DM/play)ing and many options used in adventure design can mitigate or even avoid the flaw entirely. But that doesn't make the problem with the adventure.
This is very true.
Consider a system where you have have 5 dailies, but you can only use 1 daily per encounter. Now, the 15-min day gets extended out to a 5-encounters-day. There's no point in stopping before five enounters, as you enter each encounter at maximum potential.
Of course, the problem with the above system is that it is hard to restrict powers in such a fashion, and causes issues if there is a power-imbalance between the dailies, or if you use the same daily 5 times, why not just make the daily into a per-encounter power.
I agree with your post. The mechanics encourage it. What I guess you are implying is that the problem be fixed at the mechanic level, this I would disagree with. I agree that if all classes had the same power rate (e.g. daily, encounter, will as in 4e) this would largely solve the 10 min workday problem at least classes would be EQUALLY effected by resource waste. I disagree that this should be done because in my opinion, D&D spellcasters memorize spells, D&D fighters dont, and there are classes with a variety of resource rates that aren't equal. Thats how classes work, in my definition of D&D. If they don't in your game, thats fine but I personally wouldnt call that D&D.
So naturally, I think the problem needs to be solved at an adventure level/DM level because the mechanic you reference as a "problem" is an essential assumption of D&D (for me)*
*Dont get me wrong, the system can still be changed/tweaked to lessen this problem. Healing surges is an example. But if the solution is getting rid of dailies, or forcing everyone onto the same power rate then personally for me you have cause a much bigger problem.
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tlantl
First Post
For the record, I don't actually do anything to stop players from taking rests when they think they need them. Most of the stuff I do is reasonably paced. I just make the obstacles and roll the dice in most cases.
The players at the table make those decisions based on my style of running a game. If the group needs to use up all of their spells to deal with a problem then so be it. In reality there is no ten minute work day if the players are willing to play that style of game. It's really only a problem for people who are impatient or worse.
The players at the table decide how they want to proceed. In a time critical or situation critical situation I set the environment and the players do the adventuring. If they need to stop it's because I depleted them sufficiently, not because the cleric blew all of her spells or the mage is in idiot who blasts everything he sees. (Which he is wont to do more often than not.) But then I've been playing with most of them for ten years or more.
New players learn how to manage their stuff, experienced players joining our games are taught the error of their ways when everyone else is still going forward and they have to resort to throwing things or beating on the monsters with their sticks.
The players at the table make those decisions based on my style of running a game. If the group needs to use up all of their spells to deal with a problem then so be it. In reality there is no ten minute work day if the players are willing to play that style of game. It's really only a problem for people who are impatient or worse.
The players at the table decide how they want to proceed. In a time critical or situation critical situation I set the environment and the players do the adventuring. If they need to stop it's because I depleted them sufficiently, not because the cleric blew all of her spells or the mage is in idiot who blasts everything he sees. (Which he is wont to do more often than not.) But then I've been playing with most of them for ten years or more.
New players learn how to manage their stuff, experienced players joining our games are taught the error of their ways when everyone else is still going forward and they have to resort to throwing things or beating on the monsters with their sticks.
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