D&D 5E D&D Next Design Goals (Article)

2e had British, gun toting, anthropomophic hippopotami, impotent half-dwarf gladiators and philisophically murderous interplanar mutts mangling 17th century london slang. Few GMs allowed them to be in the same party.

In 2e you tended to see better seperation between different camapign worlds, in spite of the fact that both Spelljammer and Planescape were explict methods for hopping between campaign worlds.

In not know.


Exactly. 2E had all kinds of options but settings had clear parameters. The core wasn't kitchen sink, even if the overall available options made it seem that way. 3E was the first time i really encountered campaigns with unusual flavor combos in terms of a half dragon monk wizard showing up in the middle of what had to that point been human-focused fantasy campaign. But that was highly GM and group dependant.
 

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The problem I see is that making things modular potentially makes arriving at that social contract more difficult, or come with long term consequences. If somebody at the table wants old school high immersion, and another wants to play Spiderman with a laser gun, and 5E has modular rules for both, their is going to be some level of conflict in achieving the social contract, and whoever doesn't get what they want is likely to hold some level of resentment or at least longing for something they want but aren't allowed to use. That player starts enjoying the game less and participating less, and might become a problem player down the road.

Its something I saw back when I was playing 3E and a DM would label certain books off limits. Some people took it hard and the game suffered for it, and this was something I never saw in other editions(2E and 4E) or other RPGs that had didn't have lots of controversial optional rules.

Its a bigger issue when it is something that the game supports and has rules for than when its something the game doesn't offer in the first place.

i share this concern, and had the same problem with 3e. I commented on another response to this post to point to 2e as an example of how to do modular options in a way that doesn't create the cantina effect or conflict between different players at the table. In my opinion though you are very correct to focus on this, as it is probably the biggest weakness inherent in their approach. This is why i was in favor of simply making a new edition that appealed to as many styles as possible without stepping on any dealbreakers. But it became clear that doing so was likely impossible, and the modular options is probably their only choice now. Going forward people will probably have to find gaming groups who share their preferences in terms of options
 

Vyvyan Basterd said:
Shoot a stirge or two then run like hell. Repeat your guerilla tactics until they are cleared out.

Buy some goats, herd them in to let the bloodsucking striges become sated on a meal other than you.

This is the OS play I'm used to. There was a drive to keep oneself out of harm's way to accomplish your goals. 3E and later versions tend to teach you to take things head on. In my 4E games I've only seen the players decide to flee when the encounter is designed to force them to (with a seeming unending line of reinforcements entering the battlefield).

Geat example of the combat-as-war mentality and the combat-as-sport mentality. I don't exactly want to go back to having to flee or trick stirges as a default mode, but I also want more of the danger and unpredictability than 4e can comfortably contain.

3e hits closer to my comfort zone, but even there, things tend to be too easy.
 

It can fail to deliver in the future, and I can conclude that if things continue where they seem to be heading, or if they fail to achieve an acceptable level of balance, they will fail to deliver a game I'm interested in playing. At this point, these things are ifs, but they have started marketing it and previewing info, and conclusions can be drawn.

I'm confused, especially as you keep responding to a quote that was directed [MENTION=6670763]Yora[/MENTION], as if it was directed at you. The post your responding to here was my refuting you saying I was labeling Yora, which I wasn't. But you keep responding as if I'm talking about you.

Apparently you find something in my post that hits a little too close to the mark for you. I'd say that has more to do with what you think about you, than what I think about you...

But since you're the one that keeps bringing this up:

Yes, conclusions can be drawn. Though with the amount of info we have, the conclusions that can be drawn only have a chance of accuracy the more non-specific they are. And, choosing to voice only negative conclusions is far from objective or fair. I'd go as far as to say it borders on fallacious.

So yeah, I'd say that choosing to focus on the potential negative is making up your mind to be against it.

There's so many possible varieties of response, from full-on fanboy, hopeful optimism, and even straight objective neutrality, that choosing to be expectantly pessimistic is a large indicator of one's mindset and approach.

So, just as you say you're able to draw conclusions about D&D Next, we have more than enough info to draw conclusions about your state of mind on this.


In light of that, I have a proposal. How about you list here the parts of the D&D Design Goals, any statements by the Design Team, and revealed parts of the system that you have problems with and why you believe they are leading to a game you won't care for...and we'll discuss them.

I only ask one thing, that the assumed negativity be left out of the conversation and it remain objective. I'll do the same. No expectant pessisism on your part, no hopeful optimism on mine.

Maybe it will even help you distill down your objections into a form that you can express on the WotC forums in a constructive manner. Seems to me that being a positive and constructive part of making a game that plays the way it needs to for you and other 4E fans, serves you much better in the long run than just giving unconstructive and negative criticism, and deciding it's not going to be your kind of game before you see it...


What do you say...?B-)
 

Geat example of the combat-as-war mentality and the combat-as-sport mentality. I don't exactly want to go back to having to flee or trick stirges as a default mode, but I also want more of the danger and unpredictability than 4e can comfortably contain.

3e hits closer to my comfort zone, but even there, things tend to be too easy.

I'm not sure whether I want to play that way again or not, but it would be good if 5E could handle that style of game well.
 

True, but that's not me. I am very exited about what we will get.

But for the reason that I am expecting something very different from what has been there before. All edition of D&D were not very good.

I aplogize then for the characterisation. I lumped those two posts you had in this thread (that I quoted earlier) in with others claims of the design team expressing 4E hate, and other posters choosing to be negative. I should not have done that. I went back and read a few of your other past posts in this thread and others, and I was definitely wrong.

I believe I got a bit white knighty on 5E's behalf. Something which I have disliked in others as concerns other editions.

I need to be more vigilant in not letting myself go there.

:o
 

It had a thief class that really wasn't good at combat, and Vancian casting to make the 5 minute workday possible. Moldvay 1981 I believe didn't have BECMI's weapon mastery system, so caster dominance came into play past name level, an no I don't consider followers to make up for that. I could go on.
For the record, I don't entirely agree with DMKastmaria's post. Or, rather I don't disagree, but I don't think "thinking beyond the character sheet" is a good argument for saying a game is balanced.

OTOH, I don't think the above are good examples of B/X being imbalanced. The thief is not bad at combat. They have low hp and high AC, so they're not good at melee, but they get Cleric to-hit tables and their natural high Dex gives them missile fire bonuses. Also, at 10th Level they can use magic scrolls. They're good light artillery. Plus, they make up for their relative combat weakness with their skills. No, it's not 4e type balance, but it's a kind of balance.

An argument can be made about the five minute workday, but that's a bugaboo of every edition of D&D, even 4e. It's just sound tactics in any case to go into an engagement fully charged. But still, it's not a big problem because of the way the casters are designed. Because they have weaker spells than most other editions, and fewer of them, there's less of an ability to nova in such a way that the party with a caster out of spells greatly cuts down on the party's viability. Lower hit points and swingier damage also discourage excessive combat engagement, while reaction rolls and morale checks can cut short or even avoid combat altogether. Sure, that's a particular playstyle that not everyone likes, but it's balanced.

Caster dominance is not a problem at all in B/X unless the DM really loves casters, and gives them every spell, and plenty access to magic scrolls, wands, and other options, basically houseruling it into 3e. The highest level in B/X is 14. At Level 14, casters get 2 sixth level spells. That's it. And the majority of spells in B/X are utility spells. The big guns, Death Ray and Disintegrate, are not automatic game winners. Death Ray is essentially a minion killer, and doesn't even work on creatures with 8 HD or levels (read: anything likely to be a good fight for Expert level characters). Disintegrate works on one creature, but they make a Save vs. Death Ray. Virtually all monsters use Fighter saves, the best saves in the game (save for demi-humans), and Death Ray is the Fighter's best save. Polymorph Self gives you the physical abilities of what you turn into, but not any special abilities (like breath weapons) and you keep your normal AC, hp, and to-hit rolls. Cloudkill is another minion killer, doing a mere 1 point of damage to any creature with 5 or more hp, and is tough to control, liable to being blown by the wind or sinking down holes or hills.

Really, some of the more powerful spells are the ones like animate dead, animate object, conjure elemental, or invisible stalker. And all these do is basically give you low-level temporary retainers, like the fighter has. Meanwhile, the fighter's also got the best saving throws, the best AC, and best to-hit, and due to the non-uniform XP tables, is usually a level or two ahead of the wizard.

Because they use similar conceptual mechanics, B/X and BECMI typically get lumped in with 1e, 2e, and 3e. But I think the level of balance they achieved is underestimated. They didn't fall victim to the constant powering up of casters in the other editions, with more and more spells, more spell slots, and even more powerful versions. I think WotC's R&D could get a lot from really looking at B/X and BECMI, so I'm glad to hear Mearls' is trying stuff out using a B/X game as a springboard.
 

Buy some goats, herd them in to let the bloodsucking striges become sated on a meal other than you.

This is the OS play I'm used to.

If you don't know that stirges can be sated, you won't think to herd in goats until you *see* them become sated. If you are herding them in for the first encounter of the first adventure the character has played in, these days I would call that "metagaming", not "player skill".
 

If you don't know that stirges can be sated, you won't think to herd in goats until you *see* them become sated. If you are herding them in for the first encounter of the first adventure the character has played in, these days I would call that "metagaming", not "player skill".

Bloody near anything can become Sated. Even in D&D land. It's not an unreasonable assumption, by any means.
 

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