Fighter design goals . L&L April 30th

[WheresMyD20]

What about this is ambiguous exactly?

The quote from Mearls refers to fighter/wizard balance, not that the fighter simply exists in legend.

 

[Quickleaf]

The quote from Mearls refers to fighter/wizard balance, not that the fighter simply exists in legend.

Ah I see, you're looking for examples where fighters beat up wizards or otherwise prove themselves an equal or better challenge to a wizard.

My first thought is the Shannara series by Terry Brooks...There the reality-warping magic of the wishsong can prevent someone from reaching the wizard/Druid, but once they break thru the wishsong, magic is of little avail. That's why Allanon and Walker Boh were both trained in fighting with weapons. Most wizards/Druids in his books rely on fighters to protect them, and the really powerful wizards/Druids learn how to fight themselves.

 

[Daztur]

I don't think that comments about 5ed having fighters like the ones in myth and legend is anything to worry about, high level fighters of every edition have been able to do things that trump what normal people can do by wide wide wide margins. Nothing new here.

 

[GM Dave]

And none of this counters the teleporting flying demon wizard.

PS: No, Pathfinder fighters cannot beat wizards. Wizard spell DCs went up (as every race gets mental ability bonuses), they got more spells a day due to PF specialization mechanics, stupid class features like "I go first" (diviner) or "bigger army of skeletons" (necromancer) and they still have plenty of "I win" like charm, dominate, magic jar, fly, gate, planar binding, suffocate, web, hideous laughter,plane shift...do I need to continue? Meanwhile, Pathfinder nerfed power attack. Mr. Mearls, please do not emulate Pathfinder.

Straight up?

No, a high level fighter won't beat a high level wizard that is prepared.

Fighter though have been known to borrow power in the form of magical items that allow them to boots fly, broaches to see invisibile, or those cursed teleporting helms.

Nothing ruins a wizards flying demon presence like a fighter that pops up behind then saying, "I can see you".

I've run high level fighters, paladins, and rangers (in 3.5 and PF). I've put out damage in charges and full round attacks that is in the hundreds of damage (no pun-pun but good adds to abilities). If I can reach you and touch you with my weapons then you will feel pain.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Eh. My fighter and his trusty small room can take your teleporting flying demon wizard any day of the week.

Such a pity he's treed himself. He needs Dimensional Anchor or he can only drive the demon off. And if the demon knows where the fighter is there are so many ways to win.

 

[Ratskinner]

It's when you enter the endgame (give or take a level depending on the class).<snippage>

Got it.

Cap the levels for the lower power options? Or just say you can't do it all with one system. I don't mind Arthur and Merlin. What I mind is Arthur and Dr. Strange. Merlin was a Bard and Gandalf only cast like a 4th level druid according to Dragon.

I think with modules there's room for all of that within D&D. Especially with higher levels that few games reach, there's just no need for us to demand that the game play a certain way.

 

[Tsuga C]

High-Level Fighter Cheesefest

Sorry, Mikey, but swinging a sword or an axe should NOT be equivalent to an upper level spell. Here we go again seeking "balance" where it cannot exist without straining our credulity to the breaking point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Am I the only one that thinks that these are the same design goals with 4e fighter?

(1) is very un-4e.

 

[keterys]

In terms of fiction, magic is usually unreliable and slow, so it's not hard to make magic less effective.

If you can't fireball until the 3rd round, or meteor swarm until the 9th, well, that's plenty of time for the fighter to get his licks in... so it's a question of what preparations you've done in advance and the amazing things you can do with ritual magic outside of combat. I could live with that.

 

[Tovec]

In terms of fiction, magic is usually unreliable and slow, so it's not hard to make magic less effective.

If you can't fireball until the 3rd round, or meteor swarm until the 9th, well, that's plenty of time for the fighter to get his licks in... so it's a question of what preparations you've done in advance and the amazing things you can do with ritual magic outside of combat. I could live with that.

There isn't a problem with this per se. The problem is when you go from the previous editions to a model that requires you to spend 3 rounds casting a 3rd level spell. People will rebel. I'm not saying the spell system wouldn't look good or would be inelegant but unfortunately there is no going back.
I toyed around with a similar idea at one time but it fell apart quite quickly when I realized the people playing with the new rule are the ones who would have played it before and wouldn't like the change.