Economy and D&D

[Loonook]

The Atrium and How to Protect a Bank.

Now you wish to enter the Academy... Well, the only one in is out they say... And thus you may leave via the Atrium.

• Glassteel Atrium (treat as Luxury Courtyard * 4, Glassteel cost as Adamantine): 600,000.
• Plane-Shifting, Teleporting (*4): 300,000
• Chamber of Comfort (*4): 30,000.
• 10 locks (DC: 40) into the Academy Entrance: 1500 GP.
• 3 Improved Arcane Locks: 1450.

____
932,950 GP.

The place is beautiful, and it shows. The Head Librarian knows a fantastic location to drop the Atrium into in case of danger, and will send it there through Shifting and Teleporting to the Coordinates as needed. His other option is a direct Teleportation to a place known as the Boneyard... Which we will cover later .

It's a brutal little place, but if you have the time to cast five knocks, break the Arcane Locks, and get into the locale... Congratulations! You have gained entrance...

To the Underchamber. The Head Librarian will request your Key, and confirmation of any attendants. The Head Librarian has three keys specific to this location; if the locks are attempted to pick they trigger a version of the Disjunction Pulse trap followed by a Destruction Trap focused on the location.

This room is a weak little series of traps and enforcements . I do not currently have my calculations for the values here, so this area will be filled in a bit later.


The location is difficult to break into, Teleports of its own will, shifts, and is dangerous.

______________

Now, onto a question I received: How to protect a Bank.

Well... The real question is how do you want to run your Bank. How much do you wish to spend on a Bank location, and how much do you wish to protect the location. The Order and Kingdoms can afford some great protections... And I will be posting some ideas on Bank Security over at my Blog.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Treebore]

Just letting you know I am following this too, but please don't switch it to a blog, I hate popping between different websites with my slow connection. At the very least post it to both locations please.

 

[Loonook]

So along with my random weather generator I have created a handy Market Price Generator xls for any trading based group or game. In essence this chart provides a nice handy spreadsheet to randomly generate current market prices in a city. It is pretty easy to use; just go the location marked 'Sausage Factory', input the location's Maximum GP, and let the system do the walking. I've run a few hundred iterations and, despite the occasional wonky presentation under the hooks and random chance location it seems to generate a nicely self-identifying shift in market values.


Currently I have made market values vary pretty wildly; however, if you have basic EXCEL knowledge just change the appropriate numbers and you will be good to go! This chart allows you to know the current sales price of an item (rather than just 'half value') and purchase price of equipment! It does have a tendency to swing above 100%, but this is intentional.

Simulpost to my blog!

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[haakon1]

The village of Ossington

Ossington is in the Dim Forest, 3 days from a barge crossing on the Realstream, and 6 more days to the market town of Pellak. The inhabitants were almost all faux humans and faux halflings (one local human survived), but new refugees are also moving there.

Answering Loonook's questions:

1) How much does the Church of St. Cuthbert want their cleric (Banastran) who holds the new fief to pay them as a share? Nothing for the first few years, as the place is set up. It's a new holding for them, and may not survive. The country that claims it, Bissel, feels the same way -- it's more important to reinvest any surplus into growing resources there, rather than extracting value now.

2) What taxes is Banastran levying on Ossington? None yet. But the villagers do have to keep up the church and pay for the militia, the mayor, and the militia captain.

3) How many Adult Commoners? Total population is as follows.

70 villagers: 1 human , 52 faux humans, 17 faux Halflings
- Mayor: Toad (m faux halfling (toad) Aristocrat 1)

- Militia Captain: Tully (f faux human (cat))

- Warriors (9): Tanasha Lu (f faux human (fox) War3), Badger (m faux human (badger) War 2), 5 faux human (dogs) War1, 2 m faux halfing (weasels) War 1

- Experts (11): Willard (m faux human (goat) Exp2 weaver), Pease (m faux human (goose) Exp1 miller/granger/farmer), Eli (m faux human (ferret) Exp1 tanner/scout), Shepherd (f faux human (dog) Exp1 artist/singer), Kenneth (m faux human (dog) Exp1 hunter/gatherer), Grahame (m faux human (dog) Exp1 hunter/gatherer), Ratty (m faux human (rat) Exp1 farmer), Mole (m faux halfling (mole) Exp1 farmer), , Evans (m faux halfling (mouse) Exp1 secretary), Holly (f faux halfling (owl) Exp1 farmer).

- Commoners (49): Old Tarbee Lu (m human Com1 farmer)
- 37 faux humans: Liese (f faux human (rabbit) Com1 maid), Raflees (f faux human (racoon) Com1 butler), Alesia (f faux human (copperhead snake) Com1 brewer), 11 faux human (rabbits) Com1 gardeners/farmers, 9 faux human (sheep) Com1 farmers, 8 faux human (pig) hunter/gatherer/farmers, 4 faux human (oppossum) lumberjacks, 2 faux human (pig) charcoalers.
- 11 faux halflings: 5 faux halfling (mice) Com1 farmers, 4 faux halfling (squirrels) Com1 farmers/woodsmen, 2 faux halfling (sparrows) Com1 bakers/storekeepers

In addition, Banastran is resettling 19 more regular folks here:

- New militia commander: Porth (returned human male Fighter 4)

- Farmers (13): Zacharias (former village reeve, Expert at farming and organizing a village). 9 human farmers who used to farm strips/small fields (poorer farmers). 1 halfling farmer of similar former means. 1 human swineherd. 1 human beekeepers (Expert)

- Artisans (2): Furniture maker. Paper Maker. Both human experts.

- Warriors (3): Colin (Veteran porter/guard). Wounded warrior with a limp. Wounded warrior missing an arm.

- In addition, the PC's set up 3 traders (who had lost all they owned in the war, to the north) to open up trade between Pellak, Ossington, and the dwarvish settlement. Valert the Caravaneer (expert). 2 halfling peddlers.

Banastran also bought supplies for the refugees moving to Ossington, to wit:

Banastran’s new reeve, Zacharias, calculates that for 18 new workers, he needs 9 wagons (315 gp) with 4 oxen (60 gp) and 14 mules (112 gp). It’s a 21-day trip, so 75.6 gp for food and wagon repairs on the way, calculated at 1 sp per worker per day, and 1 sp per beast of burden per day. On arrival, he’ll need 250 gp for tools, seed corn, a dozen pigs, and beekeeping supplies to get the place humming, and 378 gp for 7 months of supplies to tide everyone over for the fall, winter, and until April, when the winter wheat will be ready. (18x30 x7 = 378 gp.)

The veteran porter, Colin, says he’d like a suit of studded leather armor, a light crossbow, longsword, and basic camping gear for himself and the two wounded veterans (80 gp each), plus 30 spears for the other refugees to have two each, for very basic defense. (Military Costs: 110 gp. With Resettlement Costs, it adds up to 1330.6 gp.)

4) Does the community produce anything that can be traded?

At first, they are all concentrating on survival -- getting the first year's crops in, and staying alive until then. Once they get everyone settled and sure on food, I see exportable products as:

-- To the dwarvish mining/weaponsmithing colony in the Barrier Peaks:
- Grain and pork (traditional exports)
- Charcoal (traditional export)
- Mead (one of the refugees is a beekeeper and they trained a brewer)
- Weaved linen (they trained a weaver and can grow flax)
- Leather from forest animals
- Lumber
- Furniture (one of the refugees is a furniture maker)

-- To the city of Pellak, home base of the Knights of the Watch
- Leather
- Artwork (one of the Experts is naturally talented as an artist)
- Paper (one of the refugees is a papermaker)

5) What kind of lifestyle are these people to live in?

They will all start out very poor. The faux humans are reviving a village where the real people who knew how to run it were all killed. The refugees are penniless except for what the PC's bought for them, but many are skilled.

The village will no doubt be in danger from time to time, but the nearest folks - grugach elves and the dwarf settlement -- are inclined to be friendly.

Also, about 2/3 of the faux humans/halflings have converted to the worship of St. Cuthbert (LG in my campaign), so the village will tend in that direction (though it started out true neutral, with some evil)

6) What buildings exist?

There are 17 buildings in Ossington
- Log church to St. Cuthbert, built by the PC's and the villagers

- The Grange. Large stone barn, grain storage, and mill.

- The Manor House. The only two-story house in the village, stone 1st story, half-timber upper story.

- House built of wood.

- 13 cottages of half-timber with thatch roofs.

Outside town is an outlying farm house, and an ancient, untended "Temple of the Nine God", plus other neolithic monuments, including the Standing Stones (like mini Stonehenge) in the village itself.

 

[Loonook]

Answering Loonook's questions:

See? Like my grandmother always said...

I would have to comb over your math, but you have led me to think about generating a basic economy generator for each group. Will pair well with the Market Generator .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Interesting. I suggest those interested in other views on the subject get the Ennie-winning Expeditious Retreat Press' "Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe." MMS:WE is one of the best thought out socio-economic supplements for any fantasy RPG I've ever encountered.

 

[Loonook]

Ehh, I like MMS: Europe... But there are some very odd takes on specific things that, after spending a decade studying history... I'm just going to work with this .

Anyways: Posted A New Post to the Blog regarding the Bank Security we were discussing earlier. Here are the Economy relevant parts of the post... Though not going means you're missing out on some great exposition and several new posts each week:

I think I have created a nice basic template, protecting against most threats, and providing a large space to contain everything your bank/treasury may need to contain. Strangely enough the basic design came from studying a cheap pitcher I got to see when being visited by a friend.

The pitcher contains a small channel where you can place ice or other materials.

In this case we'll go with Cloudkill.

The Vault Itself:


396000 (Adamantine Storage Spaces [Fancy, Shadow (12 hrs)/Ethereal Treated] 4 spaces
30000 - Airtight
180000 - 8 Killing Fog Veil (Exterior Walls)
SubTotal: 606000 GP.

And the 'inner vault':



110000 - Storage Space - 1 Space, Adamantine (Fancy, Shadow 12 hrs/Ethereal Treated) 1 Space
45000 - Killing Fogs Veil (Interior)


SubTotal: 155000 GP.

Total Costs (excluding locks and other materials): 761,000 GP.

Yes, it is expensive... But a bank that changes money, insures, and holds money with rights to reinvest the capital for interest can quite easily earn that sort of funding if they are working with any true amount of change. A Royal Family, drawing from dozens of lower Lords and their countryside, would be able to sponsor a Vault of this type as an afterthought, and an intelligent Mage's Academy will have that money prepared toot sweet.

So what is the point of all that changing back and forth?

Well, imagine a pitcher. During the day the 'inner vault' is cruising about in the Shadow, not linked to its mortal bonds. The enormous vault can contain 12000 cubic feet of material. That's around 5.9 million dollars... in pennies.

Try to dig up? Meet with the exterior walls being treated with Cloudkill, sending a nice series of death-tendrils out to meet you. The location is protected from gaseous form, teleportation, ethereal travel, shadow travels, etc. And this giant vault will disappear to be impregnable somewhere in the Shadow, where you can always get some nice Umbral Banyans or other creatures to protect your location.

When your Shadowy vault moves to its home in the Dark and Spooky you now have your Inner Vault. This probably appears after bank hours, and can (in theory) be accessed through the same methods as your normal vault.

Of course, the Interior Vault is filled with that nice Cloudkill effect. Oops. You can store items in this Night Vault for those who may not be able to access them during the Day, and the Constitution damage is not going to affect undead. The Night Vault can be protected by the undead or constructs, and keep the nasties away.

In theory this vault seems pretty secure, and I would love to hear your specific heist stories or ways around the vault's defense. If you have further questions regarding your world and the Economy of it I also do occasionally accept requests.

Hope you enjoy the Defense, and if you want links to specifics they are included on-site.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Zilwerks]

Economy and Canals

Thank you Loonook for all you incredibly researched and detailed postings. Also thanks to the rest with your questions and points. I will be using Pathfinder for most my RPG examples, with added information from Magical Medieval Society, Strongholds and Dynasties, and Ye Olde Shoppe.
I now bring up for you a great changer of medieval/renaissance/industrial age: The Canal.

JUST HOW MUCH DOES A CITY EAT?

When you look at RPGs in general, many generalize issues of transport but do simulate the varying technology well. Pathfinder lists your basic wagon as: Price: 35 GP, weight 400 lbs. (empty, one assumes ;-), and requiring two draft animals to pull it. Sadly the actual hauling capacity is not mentioned but history shows us it is about one ton. I will assume nice round short tons of 2000 lbs. per ton.

Cities need supplies. If they arrive by wagons, each carrying one ton and taking one day to travel 20 miles. Modern US food per day is 4.7 lbs.; I will round it to 5 lbs. per person per day because of consumption of ale, etc. So one wagon carries 400 man/days of food.

A city of 10,000 will consume at least 25 tons of foodstuff per day, probably much more considering animals and ale consumption. The means that there are 25 wagons per day, minimum. Alas distribution is not that efficient and harvests do not come every day but are seasonal.
From Ye Olde Shoppe, a 40 acre farm produces 3 tons of wheat, so there needs to be 3041 farms to create wheat to feed the city of 10,000 over the year. Of course, not all food is wheat - some are oats, barley, yams, etc. - but wheat is highly valued and the best grain for output. The farms necessary to support out city comprise 190 square miles. If we assume that every bit of land near the city can be farmed that is still all land in 8 miles of the city. Would be that land was that productive. I assume 2/3 of the land surrounding the city is not farmed. It is waste, roads, woods, rock, or just left fallow. Our circle has now grown to 12 miles. This makes longer wagon journeys and more wagons. More wagons, more teamsters, more draft animals. It gets expensive quickly. The distances that food has to be hauled make perishables expensive.

Welcome to the economic miracle of the canal.

THE CANAL

In the 1810 it cost $100 to ship 1 ton of goods from Buffalo to New York City. When the Erie Canal was finished, it went to $10. To ship one ton of goods by wagon requires a wagon, a teamster (and probably a boy to assist), and two draft animals. A wagon can operate for ten hours a day. A canal boat requires two draft animals, one bargeman (and a boy to lead the animals) and ships 30 to 50 tons. It also moves at 3 MPH with the animal pulling the barge via a towpath. The barge usually has a front cabin for the tow draft animals that work in alternating shifts and an aft cabin for the crew, typically two bargemen and a boy or a small family. Most barges operate 24 hours a day. Unlike the bumpy and noisy wagon, you can sleep on a moving barge.

CANAL CONSTRUCTION A LA RPG

Building the canal is no small task but does not require anything more than hand tools and perhaps some animal power. The Erie Canal took three men with a horse, using shovels with a plow and a scraper, one year to create one mile of canal. Most of that time was spent felling trees and pulling out stumps, not digging or piling. Much of the engineering of it was trial and error; the British canal system of the same period was more advanced. A canal is basically a ditch with embankments on the sides. The water is only 4 feet deep for the small canals such as the Erie Canal when it was first built.

Things get even better if you can afford a spellcaster or summoned being that can do a Move Earth spell. One Move Earth spell roughly does one mile of canal in four hours. A Transmute Rock to Mud spell followed by a Dispel Magic becomes an easy source of ashlar masonry blocks, useful for making canal locks, culverts, aqueducts, or reinforcing the levees. It also solves problems with digging into bedrock in rocky regions turning a strenuous mining operation into an easy shovel-the-mud operation.
Locks must be built to handle changes in elevation. Typical lock technology can only handle changes of up to 15 feet, with 10 feet being more common. Steep areas require more locks, often in a ladder-like series. Locks also require a skilled person to operate and maintain - the wooden gates require frequent repairs and maintenance. Valves are simple iron paddles and their actuators are toothed rails both of which can be made by a village blacksmith but knowing witch to throw and in what sequence is another lock keeper job. Lock keepers also monitor water levels and will seal off sections of a canal that are breached or leaking. They also collect tolls.

IT'S HARD TO SABOTAGE A DITCH

Surprisingly canals are not too susceptible to sabotage, a valid concern in a land with Orcs, Goblins, and the Chaotic Evil alignment. Long level canal runs are divided into sections by gates that are closed if a section is breached, limiting the damage if a breach occurs in the levee or berm. It also limits the flooding of fields outside the like.

ROLE PLAYING OPPORTUNITIES

Canals also allow for interesting RPG opportunities. Barge folk are an entire community unto themselves as it is cheaper to live with your family on a barge. Towns on a canal are well connected and often specialized - with cheap access to any goods or food produced anywhere on the canal a town composed entirely of smiths is possible, or an artist’s colony or religious retreat.

The downsides of a canal also make for colorful story opportunity. Criminals ply the waters of a canal, fleecing and robbing their victims and slinking away to the next stop. Waterborne diseases such as malaria and dysentery are common. Barges wear out quickly and are often piled up in some remote part of the waterway to become a dangerous pile of wrecks and an easy havens for undead. Prosperous cities can be devastated or starved very quickly if their canal is blocked via natural silt, unnatural magic, or enemy army.

Canals are one aspect of transportation and fit well in most pseudo-medieval settings. The effects of canals and all transportation should be a vital consideration when dealing with the economics of an RPG.

AND A PERSONAL RANT...

One of the great failings, IMHO, of the Golarion campaign setting for Pathfinder is the general idea of "City in the wilderness" instead of "City with fifty miles of surrounding fields, small towns, hedgerows and fences". The authors forgot the truth that for every person in a city or town there are 5 to 10 in the rural country. This fault is especially true in their Kingmaker adventure path, but good enough for gaming I guess. One of my long running pet peeve in RPGs, especially in their maps, is the lack of the terrain type known as fields - the plowed, weeded and seeded terrain of every farm. Harn was a notable exception to this problem, as is Ars Magica.

AND THANK YOU

Thanks for your time. Let me know if any of my assumptions or math is wrong. Happy gaming!

Matthew "ZilWerks" Iskra
First RPG game 1973? Continuous since 1978.

 

[S'mon]

Re D&D economics - I've just been reading Greg Clark's A Farewell to Alms, which has a lot of info on the medieval economy. One thing I noticed was that skilled craftsman wages were around twice unskilled labourer wages, though the difference declined over time. D&D seems to assume a far bigger difference, ten to one or more. Also, unskilled labourer wage was far above survival-subsistence wage. The old 'Town Planner' series from White Dwarf suggested increasing unskilled-labourer wage from 1 sp/day to 5 sp/day, and if you keep listed prices and skilled-craftsman wages then that looks about right. Alternatively craftsman wages should be far lower, but this could make the equipment prices look implausible.

Edit: Here's a great page of medieval prices and wages - http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm
In terms of wages and costs, a D&D 'silver piece' is more akin to a penny than to a shilling, eg the bottom table of wages shows the thatcher (skilled worker) wage rising from 2p to ca 6p over 300 years, while his assistant (unskilled worker) wage went from 1p to ca 4p. In the mercenary wages, the lowest listed is 2p/day for Welsh infantry in 1346; armoured infantry earned 6p/day at the same time. Those look to translate closely to D&D sp/day. Armourers in 1544 earned 24 shillings/month, at 12p/shilling that's 288p/month or around 30gp in D&D terms, at a time when unskilled workers were earning around 4p/day. So if the setting is a late-medieval economy unskilled workers should likely be earning ca 3-5 sp/day.

 

[S'mon]

One of the great failings, IMHO, of the Golarion campaign setting for Pathfinder is the general idea of "City in the wilderness" instead of "City with fifty miles of surrounding fields, small towns, hedgerows and fences". The authors forgot the truth that for every person in a city or town there are 5 to 10 in the rural country. This fault is especially true in their Kingmaker adventure path, but good enough for gaming I guess. One of my long running pet peeve in RPGs, especially in their maps, is the lack of the terrain type known as fields - the plowed, weeded and seeded terrain of every farm. Harn was a notable exception to this problem, as is Ars Magica.

I agree strongly about fields! I add them in to all my maps; fertile farmland typically can have 100 farmers per square mile supporting 25 city folk, though 50/10 is also common, and the Roman-style Latifundia slave farms of the City State of the Invincible Overlord are much more 'efficient' but require constant import of new workers.

Re canals, they don't feel very 'medieval', but would fit well in certain settings, eg Golarion's Andoran (post-Revolutionary USA) or Molthune (19th century Prussia)