[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

"Better" always depends on certain criteria. How is something better? Under what circumstances is it better? And in gaming, whether you want something better along those criteria is typically a subjective choice.

I think that, once you define the subjective criteria, it's very easy to make a better or worse game.

If you're going to make a game where immersion is important, stop-motion initiative like you see in WotC-D&D isn't very helpful. Nor 1-minute combat rounds or martial powers. "What is my guy doing?" "Don't worry, it's not important."

I think it's very hard to make a game that will satisfy a large number of different criteria at the same time - I think that 4E attempted by going with the heavy abstraction + tactical choices route, but I believe it failed to hit many different interests.

For instance: In my experience, a lot of RPGers don't actually want to make meaningful choices while playing. They want to be entertained. If you make a game that relies on meaningful choices, it's going to be a problem.
 

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Back in the day, we often started things off at 3rd level just to avoid the worst parts. (Well, to be more precise, with enough xp to get the wizards to 3rd level.)

In pre-4th Ed campaigns I always start the characters with double max HD at first level (wizard has 8, fighter has 20 etc), helps with the "A gnome throws a carrot at you; you die." problem.
 

You guys are supposed to be talking about wizards. Not cars!
Two wizards - each perfectly at balance with themselves, each other, and the world around them - are out for a sunset cruise; one in her 1965 Mustang, the other in his 2012 Prius. From his open windows come the rich tones of an orchestra of fine Stradivarii doing Beethoven proud; she's got the top down while rocking out to the dulcet tones of "When the Levee Breaks", hair streaming in the wind.

Side by side they roll down the gently winding road toward the city lights...

Lan-"dark moon cruiser"-efan
 

Two wizards - each perfectly at balance with themselves, each other, and the world around them - are out for a sunset cruise; one in her 1965 Mustang, the other in his 2012 Prius. From his open windows come the rich tones of an orchestra of fine Stradivarii doing Beethoven proud; she's got the top down while rocking out to the dulcet tones of "When the Levee Breaks", hair streaming in the wind.

Side by side they roll down the gently winding road toward the city lights...

Lan-"dark moon cruiser"-efan

Yes this is about where the thread has ended. I believe it also illustrates the warning our teachers used to give us about using analogies in a debate (they are meant to clarify not convince).
 


Let me spin it around a slightly different way then.

There is at least one published game designer in this thread, and I think there are more. Now, for those who have taken a try at designing a game, would you say that your experience counts for anything? Would you say that you are a better game designer now than you were when you began designing your first game?
 

The car analogies really fall down because they're not really paying attention to the fact that cars have been designed for different goals.

Maybe the car doesn't go faster, but it gets better mileage, is better for the environment, and is almost exponentially safer in the case of an accident.

Maybe you don't care about that. I'll admit, it's _real hard_ to find cars that aren't designed for safety nowadays. So we get a lot more crumple zones, plastic, etc instead of solid metal construction. So that's a potential downside, unless you get in an accident - in which case it's a lifesaver. Maybe you don't ever get in accidents (though, sadly, that's based on the skill of all participants, as well as a bit of luck), but... that's still how they're designing them nowadays.

But if you do want to make a speed/muscle car equivalent, you can do a lot better with modern gear, if you know what you're doing.

Anyhow, you get the same question in RPGs. Part of the problem is that folks want different things (speed, safety, etc) out of their RPG. There is a certain amount of nostalgia, as well, but let's not overlook that some things that folks liked are getting sacrificed at the altar of improvements in other areas. Hopefully they'll also not willfully disregard that there were very good reasons to want those improvements, too.
 

There is at least one published game designer in this thread, and I think there are more. Now, for those who have taken a try at designing a game, would you say that your experience counts for anything? Would you say that you are a better game designer now than you were when you began designing your first game?

Sure. But saying experience counts for something is different from a straight comparison to game mechanics as evolving tech. I dont discount the value of experience over the course of a game line. What I reject is the idea that 4.0 represents a more technologically advanced state of gaming than 1E. Personally I would compare it more to writing. Over time you hone your process. But having a good process doesn't always yield the best material (some writers do their best work when they are hacking blind in the woods, and decline once they have a framework in pkace). Sometimes too many lenses are created over the years and it makes more problems. so where I do agree is that designers do have more options to pull from now because others have helped establish new approaches. I disagree that an aesthetic or style choice (like unified mechanics) is objectively better than another (like non unified mechanics)---for the reasons I posted above. i agree unified mechanics is a strong trend (though I think saying it is a three decade trend is very much overstating things). But yes experience counts.

At the same time, my first published game (the one where I had the least experience) remains my most popular game (outselling games I personally think are better designed). At the end of the day what matters is how many people play a game, and how many people like it. If I make a game that is deemed the best designed by a small cabal of game designers, but is rejected entirely by the people who actually play rpgs, it isn't much of an achievement in my mind. So while I think you raise a good point here, the danger (and the this is one I see wotc constantly fall into) is the designers will design to please their own egos as designers rather than make a game that people want ("first, do no harm").
 

The car analogies really fall down because they're not really paying attention to the fact that cars have been designed for different goals.

Maybe the car doesn't go faster, but it gets better mileage, is better for the environment, and is almost exponentially safer in the case of an accident.

OTOH, one place where the car analogy holds is that there are at least two different types of design, and people not infrequenly confuse them. That's not all that surprising, either, because the different types of designs impinge on each other.

The "lines" of a car are part aesthetic choice, part a concession to aerodynamics, and then whatever limits of materials, costs, weight, etc. that emerge from that. Liking or not liking the resulting "lines" is a subjective appreciation thing, but those exact same lines can be discussed from completely objective aerodynamic principles and constraints.

I sometimes see complaints about systems, objectivity, and so forth that seem to make no such distinctions about competing limits. For example, in a much older argument, you'd sometimes see people complain bitterly about D&D using a d20 to govern the attack calculation, usually favoring replacement with some kind of bell curve die set, such as 3d6, on the grounds that "crit on a 20" happened "too frequently" or other complaints about a linear result set divided into 5% increments. Such people are usually impervious to any discussion of the design trade-offs that such switches necessarily entail, and what that means for the rest of the system. (I'm particularly aware of this one, because I happen to share their sensibilities on the feel of the d20 to a large degree, while still managing to appreciate some of the design decisions that make the d20 not so easily dismissed.)

So does it appear to me a lot of the unconcious design advocated for the wizard and other such issues. It is almost as if some get so caught up in the aesthetics of the "lines" that no other, more objective design issues are allowed to have much real purchase. They'll receive a few nods, the same way that people will allow that, "of course, handling time and other playability issues need to be addressed," but then will systematically ignore such issues beyond a bit of lip service.

It is as if someone had gone to an engineer and demanded marble counter tops on the hood of an economy car, and then expected the rest of the vehicle to somehow make up for this choice. The engineer might attack it as an interesting challenge, but he'll never consider the project itself to be representative of good design.

And all of that, doesn't even touch the fact that some of us appreciate good design as itself part of an aesthetic reaction. We are the "form follows function" crowd, and forever divided from those that see it the other way around. Yep, Shakespeare's sonnets really are objectively superior to that hack Emily Dickenson in one sense, whatever you may subjectively appreciate or not in other senses. The sonnets use a form more likely to produce a pleasing result when rendered in English. Iambic pentameter really is a better choice for poetry than iambic tetrameter. I understand it's the reason why medieval French poetry is so difficult to translate into English, the pleasng sound in medieval French being the opposite (though not reading medieval French, I'm going on authority here).
 

At the end of the day what matters is how many people play a game, and how many people like it. If I make a game that is deemed the best designed by a small cabal of game designers, but is rejected entirely by the people who actually play rpgs, it isn't much of an achievement in my mind.

Very good point, just like many musicians do not always want to hear other musician's opinions about music.
 

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