L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

[keterys]

Merged the two threads on the same topic. Enjoy.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I know Hit Points is the best we have, but they really do not make sense in a lot of cases. Its just one of those things I try not to think about too much.

Just think of them as ablative "plot armor." It's what they're there for, so characters can be other-than-posthumous heroes.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Frankly, I think it might just be easier to recover half the hit points lost in an encounter with a modest rest after a fight.

Maybe a third.

Minor injuries add up. Professional athletes often play at less than 100% throughout the season, due to wear and tear. Injuries that aren't too debilitating, but still drag down performance. I figure fighting your way through a dungeon, is bit harder on the body than professional football.

A way of negating hp loss attributable to "fighting ability," stamina, and minor scrapes, after a single battle, is certainly called for. Maybe luck and divine favor belong in that category as well.

A couple of days to get back into action after being taken down, is too quick. Feels like a cartoon, not a life and death struggle.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

As good as dead? That depends on where the arrow hits you and how. If they managed to avoid infection (and rarely has D&D delved into that level of realism), plenty of people have survived arrow wounds throughout history. Just because an arrow inflicts hit point damage doesn't mean it skewered you through the vitals. Maybe it nicked your arm or leg (maybe even your ear). Perhaps it was tumbling through the air as it hit, leaving a welt. Perhaps it shattered on some armor or other obstacle and bits of wood and fletching got in your eye.

I think with the arrow and spider bit examples:

a) If the result is the character isn't bloodied, we're talking bouncing off of armor or dodging or near miss, "the arrow flies directly past your ear". Each of these covers the three areas identified: bulk, skill and cosmic luck or fluff.
I would prefer that the spider poison as talked about in the article example, doesn't even need to be saved against in this situation,

b) If the result is bloodied, we're talking about a flesh wound or maybe a little more. Arrow stuck somewhere it shouldn't be but nowhere vital. In terms of the spider poison, you need to start saving at this point.

c) If the result is zero or less, then you are talking the arrow stuck somewhere where it really shouldn't be. This should have an impact on play. I'd like it if the spider poison was real nasty - auto fail the save while at or below zero.

Just some thoughts.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The advantage of hit dice is following:

A healing spell now can say:

cure light wounds: recover 2 hit dice+your level. Much less clunky than 20% of hp. Also better than healing xd8 (which does not take into account that a barbarian with 3 damage is differently injured than a wizard with 3 damage).

 

[GX.Sigma]

Sorry for being dense but I don't get it... Does this mean you'll have hit points separate from hit dice in some way? Or will have to go back to rolling for hit points every level??

Sounds like the pre-4e system where you roll your hit die each level and gain that many max HP. I think it's a given that there will be a non-random option.

I like the proposed system. It makes it more relevant how many HD a creature "has," rather than it being a strange thing that's important only once and can be safely ignored, until it randomly becomes incredibly important and seems arbitrary and stupid.

Like what they did with ability scores.

 

[Dausuul]

At last, Mike Mearls tackles the Big One. Presumably because, with the playtest about to start, he couldn't avoid it any longer.

I've posted elsewhere that I think the handling of hit points is make-or-break for D&DN. It's the one element that is both a major point of contention between the 3E and 4E bases, and impossible to finesse with a module. This looks like an approach that might succeed in threading the needle. I'll have to see it in play, but I think maybe I like it. It doesn't fill me with sparkles and joy, but it also doesn't make me groan, and that's all I ask from a hit point system.

One thing that does fill me with sparkles and joy is the attention being given to the fiction. It's not that I'm ecstatic about the fiction underlying hit points (no one is ever going to make the fiction of hit points pretty), but if the designers are putting this much thought into it, it's a fair bet they're doing the same with the rest of D&DN. This is a Happy Thing.

Incidentally, anybody else notice that a 1st-level fighter has 10 hit points? Looks like hit points have been scaled back quite a lot. 10 hit points is less than half what a 4E fighter would have. It's lowish even for a 3E fighter, who could be expected to have a Con bonus. I'm curious to see what the advancement rate is. Just spitballing, I'd guess it's 5 hit points per level, with an option to roll a Hit Die instead if you like to do things old-school.

Edit: And another thing. I just noticed Mearls said that when you take a night's rest, you get back Hit Dice--but he didn't say how many. All of them? Half of them? One of them? We wonders, precious, yes we wonders...

 

[The Shadow]

The advantage of hit dice is following:

A healing spell now can say:

cure light wounds: recover 2 hit dice+your level. Much less clunky than 20% of hp. Also better than healing xd8 (which does not take into account that a barbarian with 3 damage is differently injured than a wizard with 3 damage).

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's what they have in mind. Mearls explicitly says that HD represent non-magical healing, and that spells ignore them.

 

[nnms]

So what we've got here seems to be that we're keeping healing surges, but not by name, and only as a limit on non-magical healing. Other baggage of healing surges (like energy drain attacks) may also no longer apply.

I think it's definitely more than "not by name." Hit Dice as non-magical healing mechanic has some commonalities to healing surges, but it will produce very, very different results.

I don't like the way the new HD mechanic is looking. It seems like it is a healing surge, but worse because of randomness.

Or better because of randomness. It's the type of thing that can create story through emergent play. You could finish a fight, us a HD, roll low and then the entire plot could change as the party changes their timeline, takes less risks or otherwise modifies their behaviour.

I've been playing Dark Dungeons that has a first aid roll after each fight to return people d3 HP. If it goes great for everyone, then we make decisions very differently than if it goes poorly. Though this is a system where a level 1 cleric has 1d6 HP rather than 20+.

I really want to see the condition track sneak it's way into 5e somehow, but that's not really related to hp.

That would be kind of cool. I already have that sort of itch scratched with Strands of Fate and its stress tracks and consequence aspects though.

Oh, and would this work better or worse with rolling HP vs. fixed HP?

Fixed at what level? If you roll randomly and get close to the average, you'll have a very different experience than if you fix HP at the max the die size can produce and then roll low consistently.

Hooray for having no real choice but to have a healer?

As I mentioned above, I'm playing a BECMI clone right now and in that version of D&D, no one can do magical healing at level 1. Not even clerics. Yet we're managing with Keep on the Borderlands just fine. And this looks more forgiving than BECMI.

Sorry for being dense but I don't get it... Does this mean you'll have hit points separate from hit dice in some way? Or will have to go back to rolling for hit points every level??

I imagine there will be options, but it sounds like rolling for HD. I know it's a common house rule for older versions to start level 1 with maximum HP and then roll for the rest. Or to start with max and then choose to either roll or take the average.

 

[Slander]

I kinda like it. Even if the default assumption is rolling for HP (though there isn't a hint in the article one way or the other whether this is actually the case), assigning static values to the hit dice isn't a whole lot of work. As far as Hit Dice for mundane recovery, it typically won't be more fiddly than carrying potions. Where it might be a problem is if multi-classing resembles 3E, and you have to keep track of which dice you've already rolled for the day.

I do like that recovery HD are only useable outside of combat; it definitely helps differentiate it from magical healing, and while magical healing isn't required, a party will certainly appreciate the presence of a magical healer. And if mundane healing is too fast, tweaking the HD renewal time-frame is another dial DMs can adjust.