PCs vs. DMPCs

[Oni]

There was a time when your average bad guy actually had a chance of winning a fight. from the looks of things they will again.

If the developers go that route with the monsters then I'm going to be one unhappy camper.

Isn't that a good thing?

 

[herrozerro]

Right, but how would you award XP and treasure for this? Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. Obviously I could roll up some dudes and have them fight my players, but I wouldn't know how much XP a 10th-level fighter is worth; that's what gives me trouble. Unless I'm totally missing a set of rules that addresses this, in which case I feel dumb, I wouldn't know how much of a challenge an 8th-level party of evil adventurers would be to a 10th-level party of PCs (for example). That would make it tough to balance the encounter and award treasure and XP.

As to the issue of why should all wizards feel the same, of course they shouldn't. But it always seems weird to me in 4e that a 10th-level PC wizard has dozens of powers to choose from, whereas a 10th-level monster wizard only has a couple.

Here is the issue, pc vs pc is harsh in 4e, pc damage is higher than most monsters of the level and their hp is lower.

The best way to do it is to use the monster math and build a level 10 monster but give them fighter powers. Its a level 10 monster with fighter specific powers or features.

 

[Viking Bastard]

As far as XP goes, I'd rate them as an Elite monster of the same level, I think.

 

[Uller]

Right...there is nothing in 4e that stops you from doing this. Like others I would rate it an Elite of the same level...that way the NPC gets an action point and a healing surge/second wind. XP would be the same (elite of the NPC's level).

I actually plan on doing this...the player of our Paladin quit a while ago so we ran him as a spare PC for awhile...I threw in a plot item that turned him evil and he left the party after luring them into the Shadowfell...now he is a Blackguard and will eventually fight the party.

What 4e did (and 5e should certainly do) is make it very clear that NPCs/Monsters do not have to follow the rules for PCs. In other words, if the DM wants a NPC evil cleric, he just follows the rules for making an elite or solo controller(leader), give him a handful of appropriate powers and maybe an interesting magic item....it takes all of 10 minutes using the monster builder. What no one wants is to have to create a NPC as a PC class and give it "appropriate" magic items (which all ends up in the hands of the PCs)...it takes an hour and most of the detail you pour into the NPC never gets used anyway since a fight should only be 3-5 rounds anyway.

All of my players understand that PCs are unique in the world and that there aren't legions of fighters, paladins, rogues, clerics and wizards populating the setting that all follow the PC class rules. Most are non-combatants and the few that are generally follow the monster rules.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t want NPCs like in 3rd edition. I never want to do an npc this way again. In 4e my quick fix was creating elite monsters with class powers. worked ok, but still felt a little bit off.

In 5e I want to be able to chose a race, class, theme and background, give them A FEW magic items and be done. No skillpoints, no feats and for heaven´s sake not 1211343141445565759676431 magic items, just to make them borderline usable.

 

[thalmin]

I want to know the encounter level and the XP of a PC. This could be a PC going over to the other side, rival parties, a test, or a BBEG.

 

[KesselZero]

I certainly agree with everyone that we shouldn't be forced to spend hours on making an NPC that will only fight for a few rounds; I think in most real-world cases the 4e system of NPCs as monsters is better. I'd like the option to do otherwise, though, with clear guidance. One person has said the NPC would have the XP of a regular monster of its level; most others have said it would be an elite; one poster said to make it an elite so it gets an action point and a Second Wind. I'd like to not have to futz with the rules to make sure it gets those things-- it's a PC, it already has them!

Regarding the idea that PCs are special and there aren't others like them running around the campaign world-- I totally respect that idea and can see its appeal, but that's not how I prefer my game to feel. I like a game where there are plenty of NPCs that can match the PC's power levels, so when they defeat/replace/etc. those NPCs it feels like they've bested an equal, and so their rise in political power makes sense in how it matches up with their rise in combat power. Totally just a personal preference, but again, I don't think 4e models that too well.

Anyway, all this is to say that 5e will be modular and I hope there's a module that addresses what I'd like to do. Certainly shouldn't be the only method and probably shouldn't be the main one.

 

[Arlough]

But it always seems weird to me in 4e that a 10th-level PC wizard has dozens of powers to choose from, whereas a 10th-level monster wizard only has a couple.

This is in large part a result of logistics.

• You think players going nova is a problem, try PVP nova. According to the RAI, PCs should be fighting 4 to 6 battles between extended rests. Each encounter is expected to consume 20% of the party's daily resources. An NPC should therefore be 20% of a PC of equal level, or at least should cost that much to defeat. If you make it a full character, the NPC would be able to open with all of it's daily powers as it has nothing to loose.
  
• PCs specialize in damage, and monsters specialize in HP. Ever notice how the big dragon that is supposed to be the equivalent of 5 enemies only goes once, maybe twice a turn, only has two action points, but still has five times the HP that a normal monster does. Or how the low HP PCs get 5 HP per level, but the low HP monsters get 6 per?
  
• Trying to keep track of all the bits of one character is usually all a player can do. A DM has to keep track of everything that isn't a PC, which is just about everything. Having NPCs that are simpler than PCs is just so much more manageable.

I would say that if you are sending PC built NPCs against a party, give them xp as though they were solos (20% of a solo's HP, but 500% of a solo's attacks per round) and be emotionally prepared for a TPK.

My personal suggestion, do a 1 off where you build NPCs in the manner the DMG suggests and see how difficult it is for you to run, and for your players to defeat. If you have no trouble running 5 NPCs and the players have no problem with the difficulty, then go ahead and crank it up.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

 

[steeldragons]

Right, but how would you award XP and treasure for this? Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. Obviously I could roll up some dudes and have them fight my players, but I wouldn't know how much XP a 10th-level fighter is worth; that's what gives me trouble. Unless I'm totally missing a set of rules that addresses this, in which case I feel dumb, I wouldn't know how much of a challenge an 8th-level party of evil adventurers would be to a 10th-level party of PCs (for example). That would make it tough to balance the encounter and award treasure and XP.

As to the issue of why should all wizards feel the same, of course they shouldn't. But it always seems weird to me in 4e that a 10th-level PC wizard has dozens of powers to choose from, whereas a 10th-level monster wizard only has a couple.

Ok, so you realize there's nothing stopping you from rolling up "PC DMPCs". Good.

As for the XP... It's a 10th level DMPC? Grant XP as if it were a 10 HD monster...a party of 8th level DMPCs?...tally up however many 8 HD monsters...if you, mentally, equate them to a group of orcs...or bugbears...or they're low level so you think they're more like goblins or kobolds, then tally up THOSE HD.

As for treasure, obviously, whatever the DMPCs have on their person, the PCs can claim...I seriously doubt that the DMPC is walking around with all of their treasure on their back?!?! There's obviously a treasure chamber or locked chest in their quarters or some such that has their REAL [monetary] treasure. In the case of a confrontational adventuring party, then yeah, whatever they're carrying is what they've got!

If you want to throw a competing adventuring party at your PCs then yeah, sure, you have to go through and work out where they've already been and what they've already captured/found. That's on you and part of your preparations.

The "every wizard is the same" issue...I have no idea why or how this would be so. What level is the wizard? That's the HD it has.

Just my 2 cp, do with it what you will.
--SD

 

[Astrosicebear]

In 5e I want to be able to chose a race, class, theme and background, give them A FEW magic items and be done. No skillpoints, no feats and for heaven´s sake not 1211343141445565759676431 magic items, just to make them borderline usable.

It seems thats the way it will be. Choose a level, race, class, backgrounds and themes. Every bit of crunch is going to come from themes for the most part, backgrounds give skills.

Want an assassin NPC to trouble the party? Make her a level 6 human rogue, choose the elite array stats, choose the Street Thief background granting her some skills in hiding, move silent and thievery, and then add a few themes, possibly Assassin, granting her increased hiding and sneak damage and a special death attack. Done. Maybe a dagger +1 and a potion or two. Heck if you knew the themes well enough you could do it on the fly.