Runestaff and UMD?

[Greenfield]

Simple question: Can a person use the Use Magic Device skill to cast cross-class spells from a Runestaff?

 

[Omegaxicor]

what do you mean cross-class spells?

If you mean can a Wizard cast a Duskblade spell then yes, if you mean can a Wizard cast a Cleric spell I don't know

EDIT: as Kitcik says you can cast a Cleric spell but requiring another UMD check on top of any others you might have to pass to cast a particular level spell, over come the failure chance, etc...

 

[kitcik]

I would say yes, although I may have you do a second UMD check to emulate that class feature. Honestly, UMD comes up rarely in my current campaign so I am a bit foggy on it.

 

[Greenfield]

The specific example in mind is a Bard casting a Fireball.

The principle would be the same for any spell caster trying to cast a spell that's not on their class spell list, I would think.

The question comes up because this particular magic device doesn't cast the spell, the user does. That is, it isn't a "Spell Trigger" item nor a "Spell Completion" item. Instead it grants spell knowledge to the user.

At least, that's the interpretation I've seen. This position is undercut, however, by the fact that it only works X times a day per spell.

I'd imagine that you'd need two UMD checks to pull this off, one in the morning when you attune yourself to the Runestaff (you'd need to emulate a class), and one when you actually try to use the spell.

But I could be wrong, and I'm looking for well reasoned arguments on either side.

 

[Nezkrul]

emulating a class is all good for UMD, so yes a bard should be able to convert one of its 3rd level arcane spell slots into a fireball from the Runestaff... it would just require the Bard to UMD emulation of Sorcerer.

Arcane spell slots are arcane spell slots, there is no use of UMD that can make them into divine spell slots so a Bard can't use a Runestaff to cast Heal.

 

[Greenfield]

Any particular reason why the Bard would have to emulate Sorcerer instead of Wizard? While the Runestaff is most useful for a Sorcerer due to their narrow spell repertoire, it is still usable by a Wizard.

I can sort of see your argument about expending the right category of spell slot to power the spell from the Runestaff, but since the exact routing of the power isn't clearly defined I'm not sure I'm buying it. Hand it catfood and call it caviar is what UMD is all about, after all.

 

[Nezkrul]

Bards don't have to emulate anyone for a Runestaff. All the Bard has to do is spend the appropriate level arcane spell slot to cast a spell from the Runestaff. I just read all of the Runestaff rules, doesn't say anything about the spell needing to be on your class list for you to cast it from the Runestaff.

Runestaffs are for arcane spells only. Up to your/the DM to incorporate divine runestaffs.

 

[kitcik]

So, the question is, since you actually have to expend a divine spell slot to use a divine spell from a Runestaff, can you do that via UMD if you don't have a divine spell slot?

UMD says you can emulate a class feature but you cannot use the class feature that you emulate.

So, is "expending a divine spell slot" part of emulating the feature (OK) or would it be an example of using the class feature (not OK).

Let's think about 2 examples:
1) Rogue
2) Wizard

The rogue has no spell slot to expend. I would deem this to be using a class feature and NOT OK.

The wizard has spell slots, but not divine spell slots - would expending an arcane spell slot as a divine spell slot be emulating or using? Seems borderline.

Personally, I would allow it with a second UMD check, but I see [MENTION=6682154]Nezkrul[/MENTION] 's point.

 

[Greenfield]

Well, according to Product Spotlight: Magic Item Compendium, Preview 2, the Runestaff requirement is that the spell be on the caster's list.

To be precise...

...When an arcane spellcaster is attuned to a runestaff, she can substitute any of the spells stored in the runestaff for a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or greater level. She must have the spell on her spell list and be of sufficient level to cast it, though she need not know it or have it in her spellbook. If she has some of the spells on her spell list, but not others, she can only substitute spells that are on her spell list.

So no, it isn't enough to be supplying an Arcane spell slot (3rd level) to trigger the Fireball spell in a Runestaff. The wielder must have Fireball on his or her spell list.

At the same time, it never mentions that it must be an Arcane spell slot specifically, so in theory a Cleric or Druid could trigger/use Arcane spells from a Runestaff, if they can UMD to emulate a class. They'd still need to burn the spell slot, of course.

Now it's clearly implied that you need to be burning the right kind of spell slot, so a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge shouldn't be allowed to burn Divine spell slots to trigger Arcane spells, but it doesn't actually say that. At least, not on the Wizards.com page I found.

So UMD would work to emulate a class: Wizard or Sorcerer.

 

[shadyizok]

By reading some of the rules for runestaffs on MiC page 224 I think I can awnser your question and argument against some of the other statements.

Simple question: Can a person use the Use Magic Device skill to cast cross-class spells from a Runestaff?

I would say yes. If the person expends an arcane spellslot and uses UMD to emulate a class feature from a class that has that spell on it's list. (DC 21 will suffice for all classes that get spells at lvl 1, since a spell list is part of its spells classfeature) at the moment of activating the staff.

The question comes up because this particular magic device doesn't cast the spell, the user does. That is, it isn't a "Spell Trigger" item nor a "Spell Completion" item. Instead it grants spell knowledge to the user.

At least, that's the interpretation I've seen. This position is undercut, however, by the fact that it only works X times a day per spell.

These are two excerpts from MiC p224 (bold mine):
"By expending a prepared arcane spell or
arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or
lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears
on the wielder’s class spell list."

"Activating a runestaff (that is, casting a spell from it) is almost
like casting the spell yourself, including casting time and even
provoking attacks of opportunity. You must supply any components
or costs normally required by the spell cast from the
runestaff, just as if you had cast it yourself."

This states that you activate the staff and that it casts the spell, but with many of your stats being used, (not unlike a regular staff but no the same either) however instead of the power to cast it being imbued in the staff at creation (charges) you provide that by sacrificing an arcane spell slot of equal or higher lvl.

I'd imagine that you'd need two UMD checks to pull this off, one in the morning when you attune yourself to the Runestaff (you'd need to emulate a class), and one when you actually try to use the spell.

You need just the one check. Nowhere is it specified in the rules that you need to be able to cast any of the spells of the runestaff in order to attune yourself to it. You do need to roll for UMD when you activate the item though.

emulating a class is all good for UMD, so yes a bard should be able to convert one of its 3rd level arcane spell slots into a fireball from the Runestaff... it would just require the Bard to UMD emulation of Sorcerer.

Arcane spell slots are arcane spell slots, there is no use of UMD that can make them into divine spell slots so a Bard can't use a Runestaff to cast Heal.

p224 from MiC states that you need to sacrifice an arcane spell slot in order to cast a spell from the runestaff aswell as have the spell on your classlist (but this part could be overcome with UMD). So technically you could sacrifice an arcane spell slot of 6th lvl in order to cast heal from the staff if it had it, however none of the provided runestaffs has heal and under the rules of creating new ones it mentions that only arcane spells can be put in a runestaff. If you can cast an arcane version of heal you can create a runestaff with which any arcane caster can sacrifice an 6th lvl arcane spell slot and either have a lvl in or use UMD to emulate a lvl in say cleric (or any class with heal on its spell list) and cast it. No mention is made that the spell slot being sacrificied must be of the same class as classlist from wich the spell is derived.

Bards don't have to emulate anyone for a Runestaff. All the Bard has to do is spend the appropriate level arcane spell slot to cast a spell from the Runestaff. I just read all of the Runestaff rules, doesn't say anything about the spell needing to be on your class list for you to cast it from the Runestaff.

Runestaffs are for arcane spells only. Up to your/the DM to incorporate divine runestaffs.

The rules for runestaffs or on MiC p224 and not in it's entry on p176 to p182. They do mention specifically that the spell must be on your spell list. You are right that they are for arcane spells only.

So, the question is, since you actually have to expend a divine spell slot to use a divine spell from a Runestaff, can you do that via UMD if you don't have a divine spell slot? ....etc

This seems to be a moot point since you can't create divine runestaffs, nor are you allowed to pay with divine spell slots to activate one.
However you could ask your DM to allow divine runestaffs that only allow divine spell slots to be sacrificied. I would go for it.