Five-Minute Workday Article

[Balesir]

My point is that it won't matter. Whatever systemic solution they tried to insert would only solve the issue for a handful of the players who had that specific problem with the 5-minute workday/going nova situation that the solution was meant to solve. The other 90% of the gamer population would be wondering what the heck those rules were created for.

Well, the fact that I find the issue in a computer game of AD&D that has no DM reminds me that the problem is inherent in the system. The fact that the latest version of the system fixed most of the problem suggests to me that a solution is quite practicable. The fact that the DDN design team don't even plan to do more than tell us that it's an issue strikes me as simple disavowing of responsibility.

Circe defeated the Argonauts with just a few enchantments, and those guys were literally the stuff of legends.

OK, but Circe was a minor goddess. I can see why minor deity PCs are popular when the baseline is "hero", but I'd hardly call them "balanced".

 

[mlund]

You'd probably have to do it based on total XP for the day, rather than # of encounters.

Good point! I was thinking of it in traditional Dungeon-crawl module design where everything in nicely grouped but something like that has a more natural flow and is linear. So long as you still have a baseline XP-budget recommendation based on character levels it is easy for the DM. Each full budget increment over the first you meet is a 10% bonus for the day's XP.

If each 3rd level character adds a recommended 100 XP to the budget as a balance guide for the DM then the multiplier is simple. 4 characters of that level get 400 XP as their increment. 1-799 XP is no bonus. 800-1199 XP is a 10% bonus. 1200-1599XP is a 20% bonus. Etc.

This is simple. It hands reinforcements and extended running battles cleanly. It also allows multiple higher-threat challenges to have a proportional impact. Hitting 3 hard challenges that used 5 baseline budgets worth of XP is just as valuable as hitting 5 "normal" ones or maybe 8 "easy" ones.

- Marty Lund

 

[DEFCON 1]

The fact that the latest version of the system fixed most of the problem suggests to me that a solution is quite practicable.

Actually, let me correct you right here... the latest version of the system fixed most of YOUR problems. It did not fix it for most people. It didn't fix it for those people who have still been complaining about the 5-minute workday in 4E all this time, plus didn't fix it for all the people who didn't move on to play 4E because the "solution" involved the creation of mostly at-will and encounter based design that they didn't like. So while 4E might've done right by you... that doesn't mean that it did right by most of the D&D player base, and thus can't be used as the defacto "solution" for this issue.

And that's the point. No one solution (or two solutions or five solutions) will solve the issue for most players. The only way it will be solved is if they put the power into each DM's hands to develop solutions themselves because each person's issue is different from every other's.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OK, but Circe was a minor goddess. I can see why minor deity PCs are popular when the baseline is "hero", but I'd hardly call them "balanced".

To be fair, most of the Argonauts had a little divine blood running through their veins themselves...

 

[Corinth]

Part of the problem is that the PCs that partake in the 15-minute workday still make good XP from doing so. Take that away. No XP for monster kills. No XP for traps beaten. No XP for quest objectives. Award XP if, and only if, the PCs recover treasure and return to town with it; determine the GP value of the recovered treasure, and award that in XP to the surviving PCs as a group reward that must be evenly split.

Those goblins? 0 XP. The pit trap? 0 XP. Getting the princess back? 0 XP. Hauling the goblin king's treasure chest back to town? XP awarded.

The result? The PCs now has an incentive to (a) avoid useless encounters and (b) keep moving on instead of wasting resources on things that don't matter.

 

[Fifth Element]

To be fair, most of the Argonauts had a little divine blood running through their veins themselves...

Indeed. The line between mortal and divine in Greek myth is a blurry one to say the least.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Well, the fact that I find the issue in a computer game of AD&D that has no DM reminds me that the problem is inherent in the system. The fact that the latest version of the system fixed most of the problem suggests to me that a solution is quite practicable. The fact that the DDN design team don't even plan to do more than tell us that it's an issue strikes me as simple disavowing of responsibility.

They aren't dealing with it for the same reason people are saying it isn't a problem. Dealing with it interferes with vancian/per-day magic being put on a pedestal, as the 5MW is an inherent consequence of per-day abilities. Since per-day magic is a sacred cow, they won't be dealing with the issues and problems it causes.

Actually, let me correct you right here... the latest version of the system fixed most of YOUR problems. It did not fix it for most people. It didn't fix it for those people who have still been complaining about the 5-minute workday in 4E all this time, plus didn't fix it for all the people who didn't move on to play 4E because the "solution" involved the creation of mostly at-will and encounter based design that they didn't like. So while 4E might've done right by you... that doesn't mean that it did right by most of the D&D player base, and thus can't be used as the defacto "solution" for this issue.

And that's the point. No one solution (or two solutions or five solutions) will solve the issue for most players. The only way it will be solved is if they put the power into each DM's hands to develop solutions themselves because each person's issue is different from every other's.

It didn't solve it for people who disliked 4E or didn't bother to learn how it played. 4E mitigated the 5MW in to major ways. First, it limited the impact of the daily Nova. You could Nova, but it didn't do as much as it did in previous editions and thanks to encounter powers you had 80% of your offense available even if you used up all daily stuff. Second, it gave the same daily resources to all characters, so one group of characters(spellcasters) didn't have the ability to nova while others didn't.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Again, vast difference in experience here. The longest campaign I ran went from levels 2 to 27, and it lasted over 70 years in-game. Time mattered quite a bit during that game./snip

Not talking about play experience mind you, just the math.

But, if your game lasted SEVENTY YEARS in game time, then I'd say that time doesn't really matter a whole lot.

 

[JamesonCourage]

But, if your game lasted SEVENTY YEARS in game time, then I'd say that time doesn't really matter a whole lot.

Whereas time mattered quite a bit (like I said). As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

Whereas time mattered quite a bit (like I said). As always, play what you like

How? The only difference between your group and the slowest possible group is about 8 months. That's the MAXIMUM difference. Oh, wait, 27th level, so, the difference is an extra few months. So, we're talking the max difference between the slowest possible group and your group is one year. If your campaign is seventy years long, are you really going to tell me that slowing down by about 1.5% is going to make that much of a difference?

See, I look at Dark Mistress' example of the goblins above and think that that would likely be the last session I'd sit at that table. Think about it. The goblins get trashes and the PC's fall back. Ok, fine. Couple of hours later, the goblins scout out the area and discover their losses. Ok, again, fine. They are then so well organized that they can evacuate their home in a matter of hours, taking everything of real value with them. Note, they have to be even faster because they're already gone by the time the PC's return

My first question to the DM, upon realizing that the goblins have fled would be, "Where are the tracks?" They've got, at the absolute outside, a day's head start. They're laden down with food and water (since they cannot forage if they're fleeing - and if they are foraging, they're that much easier to catch. And if they're not foraging and don't have supplies, they'll be pretty easy pickings) and their loot. A blind man should be able to follow this trail.

But, I highly suspect that if I asked this question, the tracks would magically not be findable. Because, in my experience, "a living world" is only living if it manages to make things more difficult for the PC's. The goblins fled their home? FREAKING FANTASTIC. They're now easy pickings. Certainly a heck of a lot easier than when they were in their nice, trapped, hidey hole.

However, as I said, I highly suspect that in most "living world" games, tracks would mystically vanish, wandering monsters would only attack the PC's and every opponent is more organized than the best trained modern armies.

Call it a hunch.