Five-Minute Workday Article

In 1e, with NO spontaneous casting, NO +level to heals and Cure Serious a 4th level spell healing 2d8+1, ANY fight that drew a single cure spell was an important fight. On the other hand, a healthy party could keep adventuring even if the Cleric was dry, because they hadn't lost too much of their total (base+heals) HP pool, and they had some (expensive!) healing and extra-healing potions for emergencies.

I remember 2e whole games where the cleric only Preped 1 or 2 healing spells, we had 4 or 5 potions and maybe a scroll on hand, and we went through dungeons like that.

I even remember early I. 3e having a party with a cleric who didn't want to "waste" all his spells on healing and how the game felt harder for it
 

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Zustiur

Explorer
This type of restriction also takes away the fun lots of people have in the game of socialising/discussing things with their co players & of making tactical decisions.
I'm aware of that, I'd be among those people - I'm a tactician at heart. However, if the 15 MAD is a problem in a given group, that is one of the potential causes. Therefore, preventing that behaviour is a potential fix. It becomes one of those balancing acts - do you prefer the fun of being tactical, or the fun of not having 15 MAD? They're not mutually exclusive by any means, but it is a factor worthy of consideration.

You are suggesting massive house rulings.
Not quite. I'm suggesting the direction that 5E should move (if taking 3E as the starting point).
House rules or not, I'd be very interested to know how Majoru Oakheart's games would run if some AD&D assumptions were put back in.
Specifically:
  • No divine wands
  • No spontaneous casting
  • Expensive potions
  • Less clerical healing in general (see Kraydak's post)

My point is that a battle should not have to be overly dangerous to be interesting. Getting through a battle without suffering any wounds should be a high-five moment, not a point of boredom.

Kraydak said:
NO +level to heals
Oo, I'd forgotten that part.

The more these discussions go on, the more I'm thinking we should pair up 3E martial classes with 1E spellcasters and take that as a starting point.
 

pemerton

Legend
Having a brief conversation about tactics? My inclination is to prevent this happening.
I'm aware of that, I'd be among those people - I'm a tactician at heart. However, if the 15 MAD is a problem in a given group, that is one of the potential causes. Therefore, preventing that behaviour is a potential fix. It becomes one of those balancing acts - do you prefer the fun of being tactical, or the fun of not having 15 MAD?
How many of those who experience and dislike the 15 minute adventuring day would enjoy a DragonQuest or AD&D (1st ed) style rule that equates tactical conversation among the players to conversation between the PCs?

I'm guessing not that many.

There are mechanical solutions to the 15 minute day that don't require this sort of prohibition on what, for many, is part of the fun of playing.
 

Hussar

Legend
Zur said:
The more these discussions go on, the more I'm thinking we should pair up 3E martial classes with 1E spellcasters and take that as a starting point.

I see where you're going with this and it's not a bad place at all. The problem is, I think a lot of players would not be happy going back to being the wizard with his two spells per day and the cleric who memorized nothing but cure light wounds until 3rd level.

Although, that being said, if you gave those classes something to play with that spoke to those classes that they could do every round, (yup, I mean at-will abilities), then I think you'd be getting somewhere.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I see where you're going with this and it's not a bad place at all. The problem is, I think a lot of players would not be happy going back to being the wizard with his two spells per day and the cleric who memorized nothing but cure light wounds until 3rd level.

Although, that being said, if you gave those classes something to play with that spoke to those classes that they could do every round, (yup, I mean at-will abilities), then I think you'd be getting somewhere.

I don't think you would have to go quite as far as duplicating the 1e spellcasters. The 3e versions of the spellcaster classes are all fine as is. Changes between 1e and 3e are fairly minor. Spontaneous healing for clerics in 1e would be great, I think.

The real modification would have to be in spellcasting itself, not the layout of the classes. The easy of getting spells off would have to be dialed back. The ease with which casters can pump up their save DCs would have to be pruned back relative to the rise of saving throws. Accomplish both of those (and dump some of the buffs from the cleric, maybe put skill-mimicking spells on a caster level check instead of auto success) and you've got a great start.
 

Hussar

Legend
Honestly, Bill91, I think the biggest change would be pruning the spell list back to about 10 spells per level and KEEPING it there.

Never going to happen, but, would be nice.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Honestly, Bill91, I think the biggest change would be pruning the spell list back to about 10 spells per level and KEEPING it there.

Never going to happen, but, would be nice.

For casters that get the whole list available to them every day to choose what to prep? I agree, a smaller list is easier to control and manage the spell vs spell balance. I might not agree on 10 because I might see a good use for 15.

Putting a numeric upper limit on wizards would probably be a good idea too. In 1e, there were a LOT of 1st level spells but few wizards could master more than the mid-teens.

Of course one reason I'm sure we don't still have these limits is because they were "unfun" and largely ignored by gaming groups. I'd argue that's a poor excuse to turn around and then complain about balance when the game doesn't play to initial assumptions with those brakes removed.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
The funny thing about D&D's version of Vancian magic is that so many of the terms have gotten tied up into what a particular version did, that it is easy to lose sight of the underlying game and story reasons for having things the way they are in the first place. So let me try theory-crafting an 1E/3E/4E hybrid spell framework from scratch, and see where this leads us. I'm going to assume that this is mainly for wizards, just to keep it simple, though if it were to work it would have broader applications.



This hypothetical version is going to have wizards casting three types of spells:
  • "Utility" - relatively minor spells that the wizard can do a lot of in a given 24 hours, with a lot of variety, but not terribly powerful.
  • "I Win" - classic Vancian spells with big, quick effects, but in short supply, and definitely fire and forget.
  • "Long Magic" - anything that doesn't fit either of the above, but is better represented by long casting, research, major components, enchanting, etc.
Note that nothing is said about combat versus non-combat above. You can have "utility" combat spells in this scheme. They just won't be very impressive. Now, the obvious way to get that is to have "utility" spells be at-will, "I Win" spells follow more the AD&D pattern, and "Long Magic" be rituals. But again, let's not get too caught up in mechanical terms.

For example, the purpose of "at will" in 4E is to avoid a lot of book-keeping with minor effects. Otherwise, you could get much the same balance effects by providing a whole bunch of Vancian spell slots expressly for such weaker magic, or using some form of power points for them, etc. Basically, these are things where a wizard isn't likely to run dry, but might depending upon the exact scheme.

The critical piece is that they be separated from the other categories somehow. AD&D tries to do this with levels, but then so sharply curtails the amount of slots that the wizard does run out, sometimes quite rapidly. 3E corrects that problem, at the expense of letting the power get out of whack with too many slots avaialble for more powerful spells. Then 4E realizes they need separating, but largely removes the variety. Moreover, in this scheme the problem 4E has is that of its five divisions (at-will, encounter, daily, utility, and ritual), only ritual really maps to a category very well (for other reasons, granted).



There are probably 60 ways to handle this division. I'll sketch one as an example, but I'm not wedded to it:
  • We'll call the categories "utility", "spell", and "ritual". I avoid "cantrip" for "utility" because magic in all categories will scale by level, and a high level cantrip might create the wrong impression. Power is relative to category and level.
  • Wizards start with a fair number of slots, perhaps 3-4 1st level slots. Each time a new spell level is gained, the wizard gets 3-4 slots of that new level. The numbers for a given spell level increase fairly rapidly by level to whatever the cap is, probably around 6-8. Int does not modify this number in any way. (That is, a 5th level wizard might already be maxed out on 1st level slots, be about halfway on 2nd level slots, and just have picked up several 3rds.)
  • However, there is a cap on the number of "spells" ("I win" effects) that a wizard can prepare at one time. This could be the original Vancian limit of 4-6, but for game purposes we might want it to be a bit higher. I'll guess that it should be about 1 per spell level. So let's be generous and say Int mod plus 1 per spell level obtained. So the 5th level caster can use 3+Int mod slots for "spells". Furthermore, we'll say no more than 2 per any given spell level higher than 1st. So a 5th level caster with Int 18 (+4) will have 7, which means that he can prepare 3/2/2 "spells". Look familiar? :D
  • Rituals and Utility magic can now round out the remaining slots. The Next take on rituals is already promising. So mainly this is similiar, with the caveat that a "ritual" prepared in a slot already has a lot of the time, components, etc. invested in it ahead of time, and only needs to be released with a minor form of the ritual. It may take 1 hour to cast "alarm". But before you go into an adventure, you can prepare the ritual into a slot such that you now can do it the Next way on demand (some time, remaining focus or components). It doesn't get used up, though as an optional rule it might require some kind of check, and "burn out" if the checked is failed horribly. So this is the strategic level of magic, meaning really powerful stuff still doesn't cast immediately and takes considerable time and expense to get into a slot in the first place, and probably takes some static (i.e. large, not easily moved) resources to so prepare. Wizards tend to get really cranky when you ask them to swap these. ;)
  • Utility magic's different characteristic, in contrast, is that it limits what utility magic you have available, but you have a lot of it. It's easy to swap overnight, giving a spell book, even a traveling one. Once prepared, you can use it a lot. In fact, the magic is so easy to use, that when you prepare a utility spells, it comes with several uses, as "charges". Put magic missile in a 1st level slot, it operates at 1st level power, but you can cast it, say, 10 times before it runs out. (Obviously, there is a hook for a module here, with some groups making these functionally at-will, others using power point pools or even exotic limits.)
  • It's implied but not required that there aren't that many "I win" spells. Historically, there aren't that many good ones, and these are the spells most in need of some thought put into balance. So Hussar's 10-12 per spell level is a good upper limit, at the very least for what a given wizard might know. Once utility and ritual magic is taken out, I doubt we could get to 12 on any but the first two or three spells levels, anyway. Meanwhile, utility magic can proliferate madly, for all we care. Rituals simply need to be well done or left out, and let the number take care of itself.
Again, this is merely a long example of the kind of division I'm encouraging, and the thinking behind it. There is no particular reason why "utility" magic has to be in slots, necessarily. I picked that to show that it need not be "at-will" to be effectively wide open in usage. It does need a framework that allows some variety in switching effects and/or limiting it's final usage, if only in a module. Here is obviously a place where a parallel (instead of replacement) power-point system might actually work.
 
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