Aid another from a Symbiont? Intellegent Item? Familiar?

[jefgorbach]

AFB so it may be RAI, but IRC the Aid Another rule indicates/implies the temporary bonus to your skill roll occurs because the additional participates review your attempt to hopefully catch potential mistakes or oversights. Since this isnt possible with a sensory check like Listen and/or Spot (even telepathically), the Scarbs would be treated separately; presumably Taking10 +5 racial bonus (to save time/rolling). Therefore guaranteeing he'd never be flanked and always able to accept their Take15 on Listen, Spot checks and/or roll his own skill, using the higher result.

 

[Empirate]

I'm not familiar with Throwing Scarabs, but it seems to me that 1,000 gp for an intelligent item is rather very little...

Resolving this issue certainly requires heavy DM intervention. I'd probably call that some of the time, some of the Scarabs will be willing to help your Neutral Good butt out - but not automatically, all the time. They'd need a good reason. Ego 2 only means YOU are not easily dominated by THEM. It doesn't mean they do your bidding all the time. Also, some of the time, some of the Scarabs are actually on the lookout - but not all the time. It would strain even a magical creature to be on constant alert.

Moreover, I'd never allow taking 10 on Spot or Listen checks to avoid an ambush or detect a trap or something like that. I'd rather take average rolls, which means that your Scarabs only have a three-quarter chance of making the DC 10 check to aid another.

[MENTION=28278]jefgorbach[/MENTION]: I really don't get this part: "Therefore guaranteeing he'd never be flanked and always able to accept their Take15 on Listen, Spot checks and/or roll his own skill, using the higher result."

First you argue that the Scarabs must make separate checks, then you argue the PC wearing them would never be flanked (which is technically true with a Rogue, but not for the reasons you seem to think), and could "take 15"? How, why, by what means, where, when, who, what? Nononono. Telepathy doesn't work this way.


All in all, going the Aid Another route quickly leads into theoretical optimization territory, such as in the infamous Nanobots build. One should probably impose rational, severe limits on what's possible, or have the game collapse.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm not familiar with Throwing Scarabs, but it seems to me that 1,000 gp for an intelligent item is rather very little...

It is a symbiont from Magic of Eberron, it's primary function is to provide a throwing weapon each round with a range of 20' that does some decent damage. As a symbiont, it has an INT score and can telepathically communicate with the host. The book provides a price to count it as a treasure equivalent as a drop from monsters, not necessarily as a purchasable item. I'm RPing the breeding of these creatures to justify having so many.

Resolving this issue certainly requires heavy DM intervention...

True and I will, just wanted to field the idea by you all first.

All in all, going the Aid Another route quickly leads into theoretical optimization territory, such as in the infamous Nanobots build. One should probably impose rational, severe limits on what's possible, or have the game collapse.

!!! I was ignorant that this concept had already been discussed, I will make great use of the ideas as well as the feedback in that thread. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

 

[Gilladian]

[MENTION=6674868]RUMBLETiGER[/MENTION] - as a DM, I would allow them to give you a single +2 to "aid another". My thinking would be that they're all in the same situation (affixed to your arm), and thus all have the same range of hearing/sight and are unlikely to each have a significant chance of "out-perceiving" one another.

Also, a single +2 is a LOT more balanced! Maybe a +2 for each arm, if I was feeling generous...

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

@RUMBLETiGER - as a DM, I would allow them to give you a single +2 to "aid another". My thinking would be that they're all in the same situation (affixed to your arm), and thus all have the same range of hearing/sight and are unlikely to each have a significant chance of "out-perceiving" one another.

Also, a single +2 is a LOT more balanced! Maybe a +2 for each arm, if I was feeling generous...

See, that sounds reasonable. Thanks.

 

[jefgorbach]

[MENTION=28278]jefgorbach[/MENTION]: I really don't get this part: "Therefore guaranteeing he'd never be flanked and always able to accept their Take15 on Listen, Spot checks and/or roll his own skill, using the higher result."

First you argue that the Scarabs must make separate checks, then you argue the PC wearing them would never be flanked (which is technically true with a Rogue, but not for the reasons you seem to think), and could "take 15"? How, why, by what means, where, when, who, what? Nononono. Telepathy doesn't work this way.

Ok, apparently I wasnt as clear as I thought.

He gets a Listen/Spot check for himself plus one for each scarab.

The question indicated the scarabs are telepathic with a +5 racial bonus to Listen and Spot. Since each scarab essentially has nothing to do BUT look around when affixed to their host, rather than roll 12(1d20+5) EVERY step, it seems reasonable to speed the game along by letting each scarab Take10 plus their +5 racial bonus; giving him a minimum check-result of 15 for any such check.
(he didnt state but presumably the scarabs, like any good hunting animal, are trained to "point" telepathically rather than constantly bombard him with 12 viewpoints)

Perhaps flanked was the wrong word. Given the indicated (12) scarabs, it seems reasonable for at LEAST one would be facing/viewing each of the six directions (forward, back, left, right, top, bottom) and thus able to inform him of anything occurring there; effectively negating the benefits of flanking him since the viewing scarab informs him of the pending attack.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Ok, apparently I wasnt as clear as I thought.

He gets a Listen/Spot check for himself plus one for each scarab.

The question indicated the scarabs are telepathic with a +5 racial bonus to Listen and Spot. Since each scarab essentially has nothing to do BUT look around when affixed to their host, rather than roll 12(1d20+5) EVERY step, it seems reasonable to speed the game along by letting each scarab Take10 plus their +5 racial bonus; giving him a minimum check-result of 15 for any such check.
(he didnt state but presumably the scarabs, like any good hunting animal, are trained to "point" telepathically rather than constantly bombard him with 12 viewpoints)

Perhaps flanked was the wrong word. Given the indicated (12) scarabs, it seems reasonable for at LEAST one would be facing/viewing each of the six directions (forward, back, left, right, top, bottom) and thus able to inform him of anything occurring there; effectively negating the benefits of flanking him since the viewing scarab informs him of the pending attack.

I think it's legit that each one could take it's own +5 check.

I have no desire to roll 12 + 1 for my PC times, but...

Thing is, the odds of rolling 12 Listen checks at a +5, means decent possibility I can roll something like a 23~25 at least once. I'd hate to shortchange that if it saves my neck.

I'll have to see if my DM would permit "lets assume 10" for those 12 guys.

letting each make it's own check would be less game breaking than providing a +24 bonus.

Now, if I let one "Aid Another" my PC for the +2, than let 5 scarabs "Aid Another" 5, than I've got 5 making a +7 check.

It's messy to do it the RAW way.

 

[Empirate]

Ok, apparently I wasnt as clear as I thought.

He gets a Listen/Spot check for himself plus one for each scarab.

The question indicated the scarabs are telepathic with a +5 racial bonus to Listen and Spot. Since each scarab essentially has nothing to do BUT look around when affixed to their host, rather than roll 12(1d20+5) EVERY step, it seems reasonable to speed the game along by letting each scarab Take10 plus their +5 racial bonus; giving him a minimum check-result of 15 for any such check.
(he didnt state but presumably the scarabs, like any good hunting animal, are trained to "point" telepathically rather than constantly bombard him with 12 viewpoints)

Perhaps flanked was the wrong word. Given the indicated (12) scarabs, it seems reasonable for at LEAST one would be facing/viewing each of the six directions (forward, back, left, right, top, bottom) and thus able to inform him of anything occurring there; effectively negating the benefits of flanking him since the viewing scarab informs him of the pending attack.

The Scarabs also have their own ideas about whether to help somebody with a conflicting alignment. Also, being told that there's somebody on the other side of you, and reacting in the right way to avoid their attacks, isn't the same.

I might be persuaded about the "minimum spot check 15" thing IF the PC in question was able to reliably control his scarabs. But immunity to flanking ought to be a little harder to come by, no?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

The Scarabs also have their own ideas about whether to help somebody with a conflicting alignment. Also, being told that there's somebody on the other side of you, and reacting in the right way to avoid their attacks, isn't the same.

I might be persuaded about the "minimum spot check 15" thing IF the PC in question was able to reliably control his scarabs. But immunity to flanking ought to be a little harder to come by, no?

I'm hoping to RP the alignment conflict thing by stating that the PC breeds the aberrations. besides, the text reads "usually lawful evil" instead of "always".

True, they still might not always cooperate. Maybe arrange a "roll a d12" and work off the result of number of scarabs feeling cooperative.

Uncanny Dodge from a few items worth 1000gp each might be a bit much, yeah.