Cackling Manaically at the 13 Aug Legends and Lore

[variant]

Good suggestion!. Make all spells that aren't your max level, to be encounter spells. So a 5th level wizard casts fireball 1xday, but Burning Hands 1x encounter, becouse he is able to memorize it again in short time (the spell itself is not taxing at all, I think you said)

I'm going to suggest this in the next playtest summary.

You're asking for a whole lot of abuse on that one.

 

[SkidAce]

You can memorize a spell in the middle of the day.....just not "re-use" one.

D20 3.5 SRD

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells."

 

[triqui]

You're asking for a whole lot of abuse on that one.

I don't think so. A 20th level wizard being able to cast burning hands 1x encounter isn't really that powerful. Casting low level spells already have a cost of oportunity: the round you are casting Burning Hands, you aren't casting Time Stop, and that's a sensible cost.

Plus it makes sense within the world explanation for Vancian. A low level wizard needs a lot of effort to keep Fireball in his memory, but for Mordenkainen, it's fairly trivial to do so. Since casting spells isn't taxing, as you said yourself, there's really nothing that explains why Mordenkainen can't memorize a Burning Hand faster than Joe MacApprentice does.

Maybe 2 levels below is better, for balancing issues. A 5th level wizard casting Flaming Sphere non-stop enters cheeseland. But a 5th level wizard casting Burning Hands non-stop, is already paying a cost: he spends his round using a fairly weak spell for his level, just to be able to reuse it later. It's a fair trade off

 

[The Choice]

1. 3e never gave any real lore behind it, but it also didn't rip up the foundation either.

Nobody ripped the foundations out of anything; every edition since 2nd as had a different and or variant take on spellcasting. Heck, designers have been trying to break away from the vancian mould for as long as I have been playing this game (1992). What's more, 4E wizards still memorize spells, and still lose access to them once they are cast. They just have a few more resources to call upon even when that resource runs out (like reserve feats back in 3.5).

2. Powers of spells is determined by level. A level 3 spell is a level 3 spell. There is no continuity when one of those level 3 spells for some reason can be obtained simply by taking a short break while others cannot. Plus, a level 3 spell takes no more rest to obtain than a level 9 spell. Just as it takes no less time for a level 20 wizard to regain a single level 3 spell he used than if he used his entire spell repertoire.



There's already levels of complexity in spells, they are called level 1 through 9.

That's not entirely true, though. The "level 1-9" granularity creates a lot of occasions where spells that are wildly more/less powerful exist in the same "spell level". Siloing spells into different resource management sections softens (but doesn't completely negate) that problem. I would argue that it allows for greater spell diversity to exist.

There's also the fact that spells level 1-9 is both difficult to justify in terms of game fiction, and also to new players who might not understand why their level 5 wizard gets access to level 3 spells.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1. 3e never gave any real lore behind it, but it also didn't rip up the foundation either.

Meaning what you say was always so has been at most a houserule for more than a decade. Especially with the Sorceror there.

2. Powers of spells is determined by level.

Well, yes. We only have one scale for power of spells in pre-4e. This can be changed easily. We have a level 3 lesser spell and a level 3 greater spell. Greater spells are classic Vancian, lesser are ones specially designed to not rip the wizard's mind and so can be reprepared or recovered in a short time.

Plus, a level 3 spell takes no more rest to obtain than a level 9 spell. Just as it takes no less time for a level 20 wizard to regain a single level 3 spell he used than if he used his entire spell repertoire.

This? Is false whichever edition you are thinking about. pre-3.0 spells took 10 minutes/level to prepare (IIRC - it was certainly a scaling time). In 3.X if the level 20 wizard wants to regain a single level 3 spell, it's 15 minutes rather than an hour.

Good suggestion!. Make all spells that aren't your max level, to be encounter spells.

That scales at an absurd rate. Encounter spells should be encounter spells. And some spells shouldn't be easily repeatable like that (notably anything with a duration longer than 5 minutes for starters).

 

[variant]

Nobody ripped the foundations out of anything; every edition since 2nd as had a different and or variant take on spellcasting. Heck, designers have been trying to break away from the vancian mould for as long as I have been playing this game (1992). What's more, 4E wizards still memorize spells, and still lose access to them once they are cast. They just have a few more resources to call upon even when that resource runs out (like reserve feats back in 3.5).

I wish there was a roll-eyes smiley on this forum.

That's not entirely true, though. The "level 1-9" granularity creates a lot of occasions where spells that are wildly more/less powerful exist in the same "spell level". Siloing spells into different resource management sections softens (but doesn't completely negate) that problem. I would argue that it allows for greater spell diversity to exist.

There's also the fact that spells level 1-9 is both difficult to justify in terms of game fiction, and also to new players who might not understand why their level 5 wizard gets access to level 3 spells.

Throwing out the fundamentals of a D&D wizard isn't the way to 'fix' anything. This is no different than the crap that was 4e with their 20 levels of spells. Sorry, I don't want any of it and if it starts heading that way I just won't purchase 5e.

 

[triqui]

That scales at an absurd rate. Encounter spells should be encounter spells. And some spells shouldn't be easily repeatable like that (notably anything with a duration longer than 5 minutes for starters).

I happen to disagree. A 3rd level Daily is *not* worth a daily slot when you are 20th level. That's why in 4e you replace low level dailies when you level up, becouse that 1st level daily isn't worth the effort when you are 30th. Except for very specific spells that have no upgrade for very specific builds (like Sleep for maximized orb-izards), a low level daily is no longer "daily" once you past beyond certain level.

The 5 minute duration can be solved just by not having anything that last longer than a minute, unless it's desgined to last for the whole day, or adding a gp cost.

 

[TwoSix]

Throwing out the fundamentals of a D&D wizard isn't the way to 'fix' anything. This is no different than the crap that was 4e with their 20 levels of spells. Sorry, I don't want any of it and if it starts heading that way I just won't purchase 5e.

I hope you didn't see the part of the playtest where wizards had 10th level spells. You might need to make sure the bomb shelter is fully stocked.

 

[the Jester]

Powers of spells is determined by level. A level 3 spell is a level 3 spell. There is no continuity when one of those level 3 spells for some reason can be obtained simply by taking a short break while others cannot.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. There has never been an edition in which all spells of the same level have the same power. Compare burning hands or feather fall to magic missile, or gust of wind to fireball.

All this talk of D&D lore like it hasn't changed a million times already over the years is silly. Look at reserve feats in 3e; they basically turn a daily into an at-will. Encounter powers in 4e. Etc. If you don't like the idea, that's fine; nobody is going to force you to use them. But why are you arguing so strongly for stopping other people from playing the game the way they want to, too?

Plus, a level 3 spell takes no more rest to obtain than a level 9 spell. Just as it takes no less time for a level 20 wizard to regain a single level 3 spell he used than if he used his entire spell repertoire.

Oh, weren't we referring back to old D&D lore? Let's look at the 1e DMG on this:

Whenever one or more spells are to be regained, the minimum time required for complete rest (usually sleep) is that required for the highest spell to be recovered. Minimum rest periods are shown below:

SPELL LEVEL --- REST TIME
1-2 --- 4 hours
3-4 --- 6 hours
5-6 --- 8 hours
7-8 --- 9 hours
9 --- 12 hours

Oh dear, so not all spells take the same effort to recover after all- at least, if we're sticking to the old lore. Hmmm.

There's already levels of complexity in spells, they are called level 1 through 9.

Seriously, it really isn't that simple. Again, not all spells of a given level are equal. Why not give the weak ones something to make them worthwhile? And just shifting them down a level or two doesn't always make them worth preparing; I've still not seen anyone prep gust of wind, even though it was lowered to 2nd level in 3e.

EDIT: Remember, functionally, an encounter power for a wizard is about the same as a wizard memorizing the same daily several times.

 

[1of3]

This is quite unlike encounter powers in 4e. Where encounter powers in 4e were mostly offensive, the spells mentioned are defensive, reactive even. While encounter powers in 4e were chosen at level up, these are memorized in the morning.

So it's not like you cast the same spell over and over again. It's the same spell that regenerates.