D&D 5E L&L 3/11/2013 This Week in D&D

[TwoSix]

Instead, I could be really interested in Next if it's a "fixed" 3.X, or even better (much, much better) if it's a modernized AD&D. Because I like those systems too, and they have bigger issues than 4E, and a much bigger need of "fixing" or simply to be put up to date. I'm completely happy with the idea of going back to the D&D/AD&D formula where Next is my lighter, faster and improvisation-friendly system and 4E is the more complex, more "crunch" oriented one.

You have a solid point. I would totally be down with Next if it was AD&D 3.0. I fully support WotC supporting AD&D, and 3.X again. But 4e IS different at its very core, which is why I think it's such a poor fit for the Next design goals. I'd rather see WotC make an AD&D Next and a 4e Next.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

While I do believe, 4e could be made a little simpler, just by allowing classes to draw from a pool of similar powers, it is already there.

Essential style classes allow 4e to be a flexible and good game. And it is still supported in dragon magazine.
And I really hope, it will be supported forever. Even with new material. And actually, i see no problem. If people submit 4e content, there will be, i guess. Right now we are getting even quite some nice adventures via dungeon. Interesting ones.

So while some people fokus on bashing wotc for abandoning 4e, it is still alive. And with DDI they are still making money out of it. And hopefully they will long after next is hitting the shelves...

and now look at dndclassics.com ... they are proving, that they are commited to support every edition of DnD... they have realised, that making material for every edition available again is the right thing to do. Labeled dnd classic, it is clear, that those are older editions.

And next will be the goto edition for everyone, who wants the newest iteration, but noone is forced to play it.
And with the modular design, they are doing well designing edition neutral adventures... why not... we have the monstrous compendium for stats, whatever edition i like. And with the monster builder of 4e, i have a great way organizing the monsters and encounters...

Maybe i am wrong, but besides some few edition warriors, dnd next seems to do exactly what it should do... please those people, who want a modern system that feels like classic dnd. 3e and 4e people already have that and have enough books and material forever... frankly... most of them won´t give wotc their money anyway...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They won't and can't say that. Because they don't know that it will in fact ultimately be true. And we all know one of the "big sins" of any producer of entertainment is to "promise" something, not deliver, then spend the next eight years listening to parts of the fanbase whine about it, how they got "lied!!!" to. Why do you think companies like Blizzard stopped revealing release dates for their patches of World of Warcraft? Because too many times after they said "We're expecting to release the patch in three months" and then discovered some issue that set that date back... the fans went apoplectic. The whole "GHOSTCRAWLER PROMISED US A PONY!" syndrome.

Mike and company have said from the beginning that their intention is to put pieces in place that would allow players to emulate any previous editions they enjoyed. You either believe them, or you don't. But if you are working yourself up into a lather because every single time a column or article or webcast or interview gets released by someone from WotC that doesn't go into specifics about what is going on... you probably shouldn't follow along. Because we only hear probably a tenth of what is actually going on, and everyone is making assumptions on that based on extremely faulty information.

If you really need more concrete information from WotC to keep from freaking out... you really should do yourself a favor and just stop following along. Because you're never going to be happy for these next eighteen months.

OK, so by this logic nobody from WotC should ever say anything at all... Obviously this is ridiculous. Mike etc make statements every day about what they are planning on delivering, reasons they are doing specific things, etc. All of it is of course at some level contingent but they still DO make such statements. So why is it that somehow magically making statements that would tell us what 4e-like game support is upcoming are mysteriously taboo and ill-advised when all the other statements aren't (or they are making them anyway, whichever)?

In otherwords, sure they can throw the 4e fans that are their current paying customers a bone, surely. Yes, they have stated that IN THEORY "all editions will be supported", but they've also demonstrated a shocking lack of appreciation for what makes 4e interesting to many of us, and again not one single feature, word, etc of any specific that would relate to 4e has ever come forth. The system as currently designed is in fact fairly antithetical to what I would call 4e-like play and will need some deep hacking to work for what say O'brynn, Pemerton, Manbearcat, or myself would (I think) consider a 4e-like experience.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I think basically what would make sense to me is to start with 4e, and use that as a basic core d20 engine. You have a simple core game where you could have a set of "big 4" classes and their standard subclasses. This would be effectively like what DDN is doing, except I see no real reason to screw around with the core. Feats, skills, etc can be sawed off and some simple class features and spell/power lists provided to create a basic system ala AD&D. It can be designed with limited hit points, no surges, healbot clerics, whatever you want. Add on "Elf and Dwarf" as classes and play 'B/X', add on the subclasses and core races, play "AD&D", add on backgrounds, skills, themes, martial powers, etc etc etc as you wish and you can have everything all the way up to basically 4e. Its going to be a somewhat rewritten game in some details, but that's fine, 4e is good but can be reworked and improved plenty.

I have NO CLUE what motivated Mike to go down the road he's gone down except his personal love of 1e AD&D. It makes no sense at all to me.

 

[TwoSix]

I have NO CLUE what motivated Mike to go down the road he's gone down except his personal love of 1e AD&D. It makes no sense at all to me.

It makes no sense unless you believe that 4e is so toxic that any hint of it being the same system will be summarily rejected by the silent masses of disaffected D&D players.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

While I do believe, 4e could be made a little simpler, just by allowing classes to draw from a pool of similar powers, it is already there.

Essential style classes allow 4e to be a flexible and good game. And it is still supported in dragon magazine.
And I really hope, it will be supported forever. Even with new material. And actually, i see no problem. If people submit 4e content, there will be, i guess. Right now we are getting even quite some nice adventures via dungeon. Interesting ones.

So while some people fokus on bashing wotc for abandoning 4e, it is still alive. And with DDI they are still making money out of it. And hopefully they will long after next is hitting the shelves...

and now look at dndclassics.com ... they are proving, that they are commited to support every edition of DnD... they have realised, that making material for every edition available again is the right thing to do. Labeled dnd classic, it is clear, that those are older editions.

And next will be the goto edition for everyone, who wants the newest iteration, but noone is forced to play it.
And with the modular design, they are doing well designing edition neutral adventures... why not... we have the monstrous compendium for stats, whatever edition i like. And with the monster builder of 4e, i have a great way organizing the monsters and encounters...

Maybe i am wrong, but besides some few edition warriors, dnd next seems to do exactly what it should do... please those people, who want a modern system that feels like classic dnd. 3e and 4e people already have that and have enough books and material forever... frankly... most of them won´t give wotc their money anyway...

I agree that 4e is perfectly well supported by WotC currently. They aren't putting out any more hardcover books, and probably not any other 4e-specific products in the next year, but even that isn't assured. The material in Dragon and Dungeon seems fine. There's less of it than there was 4 years ago, but OTOH the quality seems higher and they are willing to explore a wider range of topics. I'd be perfectly happy with 4e support continuing as it is. HOWEVER, I don't see magazine articles covering 4e after DDN release, that's never happened before and isn't likely to happen now. Maybe you could argue TSR did it to a limited extent WAY back when, but then again all TSR D&D was pretty cross-compatible. A B/X adventure would work fine in 1e or 2e generally, they were largely the same game at heart. Its also of course uncertain just how long DDI will work.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

It makes no sense unless you believe that 4e is so toxic that any hint of it being the same system will be summarily rejected by the silent masses of disaffected D&D players.

That's the core of my pet theory as to why it looks like 4e is getting taken out behind the barn and shot (then broadcast for all to see). They're making a public spectacle of hating on 4e-isms because it scores cheap points with a certain demographic that they would love to "win back," and my guess is that they will do damage/spin control on the 4e fans when it comes time to release the tactical module, i.e. after they've already "won back" the anti-4e crowd. In the meantime, those affected 4e customers are still subbing to DDi, and finishing up their campaigns.

Calculated, but it makes sense to me. If I were them, I might do that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It makes no sense unless you believe that 4e is so toxic that any hint of it being the same system will be summarily rejected by the silent masses of disaffected D&D players.

Yeah, I reject that notion out of hand. There of course need not be any big touting of this aspect of the design, and the game, when examined in its "AD&D/B/X supporting" form will be readily apparent as a clean engine with that style of game implemented on top of it, plus hooks allowing for other options if you want them. Obviously some ass somewhere will try to pee all over it, but that's going to happen anyway. It isn't as if DDN as currently implemented is ANY closer to AD&D or B/X than what I'm suggesting, mechanically. TBH I can't even comprehend what all the funging around with core mechanics they're doing is about, it is really quite pointless.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Its also of course uncertain just how long DDI will work.

The "real" answer to that is, of course, as long as you want it to. There are ways of setting such things up locally, at least as far as the compendium goes, and by now CBLoader is quite widespread. Also, Masterplan. If 4e DDi support goes the way of the dodo, perhaps the power2ool guy ( @doublewumpus ) can be convinced to release a "home version" of his popular and useful webapp. I'd even pay for the privilege.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's the core of my pet theory as to why it looks like 4e is getting taken out behind the barn and shot (then broadcast for all to see). They're making a public spectacle of hating on 4e-isms because it scores cheap points with a certain demographic that they would love to "win back," and my guess is that they will do damage/spin control on the 4e fans when it comes time to release the tactical module, i.e. after they've already "won back" the anti-4e crowd. In the meantime, those affected 4e customers are still subbing to DDi, and finishing up their campaigns.

Calculated, but it makes sense to me. If I were them, I might do that.

Yeah, badly calculated if you ask me. AT BEST they can only hope for a very butt hurt fan base. IMHO they're not going to win back the people that are still comfortable with 3.x and its variations, nor the OSR crowd. They'll get SOME of the 4e crowd, eventually, and the nebulous but every fracturing "always plays whatever is the current thing" crowd. If that wasn't a big enough crowd in 4e days then its only going to be smaller now. I wish them luck, but I own no Hasbro stock and wouldn't buy WotC stock if it existed.