D&D 5E Are quadratic spellcasters still a problem?

[Li Shenron]

Just a quick comparison between Fighter and Wizard at a few key levels:

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FIGHTER 5
HP 34
AB +2
all armors, shield, simple w., martial w.
M.feats 2
Deadly Strike, w.dmg x2
Expertise 3d6 (Death Dealer, Superior Defense, Unerring Attacker)
Multiattack 2

WIZARD 5
HP 22
SB +2
daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Arcane Recovery (3rd lv)
Wiz.Knowledge
Cantrips
Spells known 4 2 1
Spells prep. 6
Spells/day 4 3 2
Rituals
Example spells available: Charm Person (lv1), Invisibility (lv2), Fly (lv3), Water Breathing (lv3), Fireball (lv3)

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FIGHTER 10
HP 64
AB +3
all armors, shield, simple w., martial w.
M.feats 3
Deadly Strike, w.dmg x3
Expertise 4d6 (Death Dealer, Superior Defense, Unerring Attacker, Unstoppable)
Multiattack 3

WIZARD 10
HP 42
SB +3
daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Arcane Recovery (3rd lv)
Wiz.Knowledge
Cantrips
Spells known 4 2 2 2 2
Spells prep. 11
Spells/day 4 3 3 3 2
Rituals
Example spells available: Invisibility (lv2), Polymorph (lv4), Cloudkill (lv5), Dominate Person (lv5), Teleportation Circle (lv5)

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FIGHTER 15
HP 94
AB +4
all armors, shield, simple w., martial w.
M.feats 3
Deadly Strike, w.dmg x4
Expertise 5d6 (Death Dealer, Superior Defense, Unerring Attacker, Unstoppable)
Multiattack 4
Combat Surge 2/day

WIZARD 15
HP 62
SB +4
daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Arcane Recovery (3rd lv)
Wiz.Knowledge
Cantrips
Spells known 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 1
Spells prep. 16
Spells/day 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
Rituals
Example spells available: Polymorph (lv4), Dominate Person (lv5), Mass Invisibility (lv7), Prismatic Spray (lv7), Teleport (lv7)

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FIGHTER 20
HP 124
AB +5
all armors, shield, simple w., martial w.
M.feats 3
Deadly Strike, w.dmg x5
Expertise 6d6 (Death Dealer, Superior Defense, Unerring Attacker, Unstoppable)
Multiattack 5
Combat Surge 4/day

WIZARD 20
HP 82
SB +5
daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Arcane Recovery (3rd lv)
Wiz.Knowledge
Cantrips
Spells known 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4
Spells prep. 21
Spells/day 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1
Rituals
Example spells available: Polymorph (lv4), Dominate Person (lv5), Mass Invisibility (lv7), Teleport (lv7), Meteor Swarm (lv9), Time Stop (lv9), Wish (lv9)

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Note that Wizard's stats do not include benefits from Tradition, so e.g. Scholarly Wizard have more spells known.

Do you think that with the current implementation of Deadly Strike (at will), Expertise Dice (encounter-based), Multiattack (round-based) and Combat Surge (daily) the Fighter keeps up well with the Wizard who got less daily spells and less spells knows than 3e (but also got more flexible preparation, and free rituals out of combat)?

Or is the quadratic Wizard still a problem?

(EDIT: example spells added)

 

[Blackbrrd]

You forgot the most important part of the equation in your comparison: what those spells actually do.

 

[Li Shenron]

You forgot the most important part of the equation in your comparison: what those spells actually do.

That's clearly the point for making a proper comparison, but so is what the fighter's special ability do... OTOH I could add some "signature" spells at those levels, as a reminder.

 

[Manbearcat]

You forgot the most important part of the equation in your comparison: what those spells actually do.

Quite true.

The two primary issues of Wizards potency are the above and expected Daily Spell deployment per combat and per day. Lets say over the course of a year-long campaign, you fight maybe 100ish fights. Lets say for rounds/day, the mean, median and mode are 8.3, 8, and 8 respectively. Lets say for combats/per day, the mean, median and mode are 2.8, 3, and 3 respectively. Lets say for both of these datasets, the standard deviation is well within half of the mean value.

If those numbers hold strong throughout the course of an adventuring career, then a Wizard's "Batman Utility Belt" nature is going to be naturally progressing as he levels, as more and more of his spell load-out (that scales...albeit less so than in 3.x) is going to be able to be plotted toward Exploration and Social. Obviously, At-Wills assist in this proliferation.

So, with the numbers above (given the potency of Wizard spells as game-changers), if I were playing a Wizard, I would be fully comfortable with allocating only 4-5 spells slots toward "adventure combat"; allowing 4-5 for "Batman" at level 5. I'd maybe go 2 (combat):4 (utility) in spells prepared. Obviously, if you're in a combat-intensive dungeon, that may see a bump in line with the standard deviation. So, by level 15, I'm generally looking at 10-11 daily spells slots allocated toward "Batmanitude" and sometimes only ~ 7ish (extraordinarily powerful utility spells). I wouldn't need to go too terribly steeply beyond the 2 combat spells that I had prepared earlier as fights aren't appreciably longer or more frequent at the level. But lets just say that I prepare near (slightly more combat spells now giving me even more combat versatility) the same ratio as level 5. I go 6:10. That is 10 swiss-army-knife spells for my utility belt.

Yup. [video=youtube;1jgE-lrfZ3k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jgE-lrfZ3k[/video]

 

[Jester David]

I think they're working towards "no".

There are two elements to quadratic wizards: versatility and power.
The latter has been toned down a little more, with fewer higher slots and higher slots required to boost non-At-will spell damage.
The former is still there, but limited by Concentration but limited by slower spells learned. But you don't want to limit this too much as not having the right tool can slow the entire party's progress through the adventure, or the wizard becomes hindered by their lack of physical prowess.

At the same time, increased damage, built in moves, and feats give fighters a power boost at higher levels.
But this has been pulled back from the fall package when martial damage was too high and fighters were arguably better than the wizard.


Fighters are still linear but I think wizards have been flattened in terms of power level. They're not quite linear but a no longer quadratic.

 

[Blackbrrd]

One of the things that made the wizard quadratic earlier was the simultanous scaling of number of spells with spell damage (or utility). At level 5, you had one fireball that did 5d6 damage, while at level 10 you had 4-5 fireballs doing 10d6 damage. In other words you had two power multipliers going up.

In DnD Next the wizards still have two multipliers, but they are lower than in previous editions, and the Fighter has gotten some power multipliers of their own. I believe they are aiming for Wizards that have some pretty heavy , but they are not as over-the-top as in earlier editions and rarer.

Comparing 5e to 4e, I think it will be less balanced, but much more balanced than in 3e. I think this is necessary if they want DnD to feel like DnD. Something I at least find very important.

 

[Rhenny]

As the playtest works right now, the wizard is becoming exponentially more powerful and versatile at 10th level and above. Yes, there is an issue.

I agree with those who say the spells themselves have to be tamed. In a 10th level playtest I ran a few weeks ago, we played with a fighter, a cleric and a wizard (evoker). The wizard stole the show. His polymorph and wall of fire decimated encounters.

We figured out that since he could cast lower level spells using higher level slots, he could cast 5 polymorphs if he wanted to (and still cast 3 fireballs, 4 with arcane recovery), or he could cast 8 fireballs (9 with arcane recovery) if he didn't use his 4th and 5th level spell slots for other spells.

One of the big problems is the Spell DCs. With a DC 17, most monsters are not going to save because they only have +1, +2, +3 as an ability modifier. Even with resistance to magic, the wizard was able to turn an Ice Devil into a chicken and a Bone Devil (later in the adventure) into a sheep.

I'm all for magic being magical and powerful, but these effects really do upstage the other PCs too often. Add to that 3d8 for cantrip damage, and even when the wizard has no spells, he/she can still harm monsters nearly as well as a fighter (fighters do gain ability bonus on damage and they do gain 1d6 some times during the encounter if they use deep wounds, and they can cleave or whirlwind which may give them something over the cantrip, but still it seems that the cantrip damage may be too high).

I am hoping that the new "super feats" that Mearls mentioned (upcoming) will help to balance this and give fighters something more.

But the more I playtest/DM the package, the more I am seeing the quad wizard problem.

Solutions?

Cantrip damage needs to be minimized (1d4 scaling at 5/10/15/20 might work better)

Wizard HD should be 1d4 again (sorry wizards....I think you have to fear getting knocked down more than you do now. There is a cost to wielding great power).

Take away the bonus to spellcasting that adds to the casters DC.

Give monsters a little more ability bonuses.

Weaken the damage spells that are AoE (especially the ones that have lingering effects)

Give polymorphed creatures a chance to save every round to revert to normal form. Being a chicken for even 1 round means that the monster cannot use any of its spells or abilities or attacks...it can peck for perhaps 1 point of damage. In the meantime, it can be gang attacked suffering a lot of damage.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think wizards need the following adjustments:

1. Saving Throw DCs shouldn't scale with level. Since saving throws don't scale, it's extremely overpowered, to the point of being game-breaking, that save DCs do. Right now, a 20th level wizard with 20 Int has a save DC of 20 for his spells. Even if his target has a 20 in the ability score he is using to make his save, he still only has a 30% chance to save. If the target has an average 10 ability score, he only has a 5% chance to save. This is especially problematic since wizards have spells that target every ability score. This is ridiculously unbalanced.

2. Cantrips should scale at the same rate as cleric deadly strike (up to 3[W] damage). They should also require attack rolls against AC instead of saving throws so that they don't "hit" more often that weapon attacks do. This also lets the player roll his at-will attacks and have a chance to crit, which IMO is more fun. I'd also give cantrips +ability modifier to damage, so that they don't totally suck at low levels. These changes also make it so that cantrips never become better than 1st level spells.

3. Spells that require concentration should require a check to maintain if the caster takes damage.

4. The overpowered spells need to be fixed. This includes stinking cloud, cloudkill, polymorph, wish, etc.

5. Some spells need to have their levels changed. For example, why is Fly only 3rd level, when it is a better spell than Air Walk, a 4th level spell? Fly should be 5th level, IMO. Not just because it's better than Air Walk, but also because it's a game-changing ability.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I don't have actual playtest experience with the wizard, but it certainly feels like the structure is more balanced. In particular, having fewer high level spell slots and concentration are both a big deal.

At this point, I really think the important part is to make sure individual spells aren't problematic for their level. Future revisions should continue to combine similar spells, move spells among levels as appropriate, and altering spells to address problems with multiple castings.

This is mostly polish work, but it's still valuable.

 

[Gadget]

I think wizards need the following adjustments:

1. Saving Throw DCs shouldn't scale with level. Since saving throws don't scale, it's extremely overpowered, to the point of being game-breaking, that save DCs do. Right now, a 20th level wizard with 20 Int has a save DC of 20 for his spells. Even if his target has a 20 in the ability score he is using to make his save, he still only has a 30% chance to save. If the target has an average 10 ability score, he only has a 5% chance to save. This is especially problematic since wizards have spells that target every ability score. This is ridiculously unbalanced.

2. Cantrips should scale at the same rate as cleric deadly strike (up to 3[W] damage). They should also require attack rolls against AC instead of saving throws so that they don't "hit" more often that weapon attacks do. This also lets the player roll his at-will attacks and have a chance to crit, which IMO is more fun. I'd also give cantrips +ability modifier to damage, so that they don't totally suck at low levels. These changes also make it so that cantrips never become better than 1st level spells.

3. Spells that require concentration should require a check to maintain if the caster takes damage.

4. The overpowered spells need to be fixed. This includes stinking cloud, cloudkill, polymorph, wish, etc.

5. Some spells need to have their levels changed. For example, why is Fly only 3rd level, when it is a better spell than Air Walk, a 4th level spell? Fly should be 5th level, IMO. Not just because it's better than Air Walk, but also because it's a game-changing ability.

Can't give any more experience, but just wanted to say I largely agree, especially about the Fly spell.