Pathfinder 1E Is Pathfinder going to slow down?

[Gundark]

Moreover, if you'd rather have the book than look it up in a disjointed fashion online, Paizo has a very aggressive pricing structure for the electronic versions of main game books. They offer multiple ways for the consumer to get the non-core material referenced in the adventures, something I appreciate.

Marketing aside, free or paid aside, the more content you put out for your game the more it becomes saturated with content. I think nobody is arguing that Paizo has done a poor job of selling their product to their fanbase. Clearly they are doing a very good job. The idea is that at some point this becomes a bloated mess, it happened with WotC, and the process is happening with Paizo

 

[Gundark]

This, to me, is a very tough issue. If the AP line only uses the core rule book and, say, the first monster book, I feel ripped off that I bought all these other books, and they never come into play in the AP's. All that content is out there - use some of it. If the AP uses these materials and does not reprint extracts of the other books (should that include full spells for the Lich reprinted from the core rules? should it also include the Wizard class that the Lich has levels in? should it reprint the full Lich entry from the monster book?), then Gundark and callinostros are unhappy. But if they spend 8 pages of that AP reprinting extracts from books I bought, why am I paying for those reprints, instead of getting 8 more pages of new content? I think a reasonable approach is to select some set of books that the AP will primarily draw from, and highlight this (just like most books will indicate you need the core rules, as this book is not a complete game), possibly draw the occasional element from another book (perhaps a spell, archetype or creature which is especially appropriate), and consider indicating a different option from the book(s) cited as primary sources that can be used by someone who does not have access to this other source material.

Fair point.

 

[callinostros]

2) If Paizo reprints information from other books (such as a spell, monster, or magic item), that's less new adventure content you're getting with your adventure. For example, the hippopotamus appears in Bestiary 2. If an AP has an encounter with a hippo, and Paizo includes the hippo's stat block in the adventure, that's half a page spent on a hippo stat block—half a page that could have been spent giving more background on the adventure, describing the motivations of a villain, or statting out a new magic item found in the AP.

Nothing kills the flow of a night of adventure more than having to flip through book X and then book Y and then shuffle through Z number of printouts from online. To include all the stats required to play is to me basic 101 adventure layout and writing (the best layouts include the stats on the page it is referenced but that is another topic - and easier said than done).

Yes, I would take less adventure if it means I don't have to spend time "prepping" by downloading stats or putting a halt during game time to look something up elsewhere that is a part of the adventure.

Maybe Paizo's next innovation is to find a way to present stats of new monsters that don't take up half a page. Of course, it actually might be a good idea to include that half a page as a "sample" of what you can get in book X; it might entice people to buy it.

Either way, if I have to bring 12 books and 12 printouts to a game that will be a factor in creating "game system fatigue" - which was the initial topic of this thread. If consumers looking at an AP think they have to buy a large number of books or spend time hunting down stats to actually run it - it will be a turn-off...both to the AP and the system.

 

[tomBitonti]

As a buyer of Pathfinder, the content does seem to have shifted into more specialized areas.

I don't see there being a problem with continuing to put out modules and adventure paths. The latest adventure path, Wrath of the Righteous, seems to be one of the better ones (in my opinion!)

However, what would be considered core areas seems to be fairly well tapped out: There is the Core Role Book, several Bestiaries, the Advanced Player's Guide, then Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Equipment, Ultimate Campaign, and, most recently, Mythic Adventures. Hard to see that new content in this space would have the same wide applicability as the existing content.

Psionics is covered pretty well by a couple of third party products which integrate well with the core rules.

What seems to enliven Pathfinder are continuing branches into nearby spaces: Cardboard, plastic, and metal miniatures; battle maps; a card game; comics and books; eventually, an MMO (see https://goblinworks.com/). While the core seems to have settled, the product line seems healthy and growing.

I wonder if Paizo is prevented, due to licensing restrictions, from producing online tools. That seems to be a space which is minimally occupied. The online SRD is much more complete than the 3E SRD, but other tools seem limited.

Thx!

TomB

 

[billd91]

The idea is that at some point this becomes a bloated mess, it happened with WotC, and the process is happening with Paizo

That's invariably a matter of taste. If you're liking the content, it doesn't matter how much is there. It isn't a bloated mess. So I'd say the judgment that Pathfinder is becoming bloated is far from universal.

 

[billd91]

Nothing kills the flow of a night of adventure more than having to flip through book X and then book Y and then shuffle through Z number of printouts from online. To include all the stats required to play is to me basic 101 adventure layout and writing (the best layouts include the stats on the page it is referenced but that is another topic - and easier said than done).

Yes, I would take less adventure if it means I don't have to spend time "prepping" by downloading stats or putting a halt during game time to look something up elsewhere that is a part of the adventure.

Maybe Paizo's next innovation is to find a way to present stats of new monsters that don't take up half a page. Of course, it actually might be a good idea to include that half a page as a "sample" of what you can get in book X; it might entice people to buy it.

Either way, if I have to bring 12 books and 12 printouts to a game that will be a factor in creating "game system fatigue" - which was the initial topic of this thread. If consumers looking at an AP think they have to buy a large number of books or spend time hunting down stats to actually run it - it will be a turn-off...both to the AP and the system.

Even earlier editions of this game that had an abbreviated stat block or line of some sort. To run modules with demons or devils, the Monster Manual was required. At least now, with all the electronic sources for Pathfinder, it is easier than ever to copy and paste into Word the stats I want. And then, printing that out, I end up with copious amounts of paper to keep good notes.

Bottom line: the format actually works well for me.

 

[Gundark]

That's invariably a matter of taste. If you're liking the content, it doesn't matter how much is there. It isn't a bloated mess. So I'd say the judgment that Pathfinder is becoming bloated is far from universal.

True, I should have avoided the word "mess", that's my opinion.

My experience with Pathfinder is admittedly very limited, but I'm seeing a very similar experience to when I was playing 3e. "How does monster x work?", "can you check spell y?", "How does feat Z work?" and then time is taken to find the appropriate book "Is that monster book 2 or 3?" and to look it up. Now looking up rules isn't unique to PF/3e, however trying to find the right rule in the right book amongst the stack of books is IMO bloated.

This is that saturation/fatigue that I was wondering about.

 

[callinostros]

Even earlier editions of this game that had an abbreviated stat block or line of some sort. To run modules with demons or devils, the Monster Manual was required. At least now, with all the electronic sources for Pathfinder, it is easier than ever to copy and paste into Word the stats I want. And then, printing that out, I end up with copious amounts of paper to keep good notes.

Bottom line: the format actually works well for me.

I guess for me, I want something I can use without having to do lots of extra work in order to use it. Sure there are lots of work-arounds, but if I wanted to do that much work I wouldn't have spent the money and simply did it myself in the first place. The purpose of a published adventure is so a DM can run an adventure without having to do the prep work (other than reading it). Forcing a DM to look up info online and in other books defeats that purpose.

 

[gamerprinter]

I wonder if Paizo is prevented, due to licensing restrictions, from producing online tools. That seems to be a space which is minimally occupied. The online SRD is much more complete than the 3E SRD, but other tools seem limited.

Thx!

TomB

No, nothing limits them from creating online tools, except for lack of inhouse personnel to do the work - Lisa Stevens has said so specifically. They currently don't want to be an online company beyond their store and PRD, they are book publishers and want to remain as that for the time being.

I don't see PF slowing down anytime soon, though it eventually will. I don't worry that Paizo isn't dipping PF into sci-fi, post-apoc, and other themes, as that is the area served by third party publishers, and I don't see third party publishers for Pathfinder slowing down anytime soon, either. I'm one of those 3PP of concern.

Also consider that despite 5 years of material, Paizo only releases 2-4 hard covers a year, which is completely different than the WotC 1 hard cover a month scenario. Trying to compare PF with 3x, especially regarding release schedule, time in service for a given edition is kind of apples and oranges. Potentially PF 1.0 will be around for a long time (another 5 years perhaps) before there would ever be a need to look at PF 2.0.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Paizo has been smart so far. They're very slow and deliberate with their hardcover releases. They hook people in with subscriptions to top notch adventure and setting material. There's pretty much infinite space for that sort of content because it's acceptable to retread old ground so long as you bring something new to it.

In the meantime, they've finding new ways to monetize the brand so that they aren't dependent on hardcover releases. The card game is a recent example of that. If popular, it'll be a source of perennial income. If the MMO is decent, it has a wealth of material to draw upon.

I don't think we'll see a Pathfinder 2.0 in the near future. If we ever do, it'll probably be another small cleanup of the rules, not the birth of a new line. Stability is the brand's greatest strength.