Item question regarding Bags of Holding

[Greenfield]

I'm not in any way sure that there's no gravity inside a Bag of Holding.

And I'd like someone to explain why filling it with water wouldn't overload it. The item description in the DMG is pretty clear that if you exceed either the weight or volume limits, or puncture it from the inside or out, it ruptures and the contents are lost.

Regarding the idea of using it as a diving bell/helmet: What if you cast Invisibility on it first. Would that allow someone inside to see out? And what would the inside look like from the outside?

I think the spell would make the bag invisible, and the contents would be masked, just as if you picked up a visible item while invisible and coverd it inside clothing. Not sure how the world would look from the inside.
<Edit>
By the way, the volume of the smallest bag is 30 cubic feet, not 30 cubic meters. 30 cubic feet is about 1 cubic meter, easily reachable/searchable.

Now the largest one, which is 250 cubic feet, or about eight and a half cubic meters, might be an issue.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Ha! That's fun. I agree that Invisibility would make it look like you just didn't have a head, but it wouldn't let you see out of the inter dimensional space.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Since the item description says, in part, "If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate..." it is safe to assume that, at the very least, the bag will not take on water when closed, otherwise it'd also allow the passage of air.
Gravity or not, [MENTION=23484]Kobold Stew[/MENTION]'s assessment appears correct, as long as there is a way to keep the air pocket within the bag, remaining in the bag, water should not rush in. Air would need to rush out. If holding it upside down accomplishes this, you should be alright.

 

[Vegepygmy]

And I'd like someone to explain why filling it with water wouldn't overload it.

N'raac said that if a bag of holding were opened underwater, he would rule that water rushes in to fill it to capacity, but will not overload it--I assume for the same reason that pushing an (upright) empty bucket underwater will cause water to rush in and fill it to capacity, but not "overload" it.

 

[Greenfield]

What do mundane buckets have to do with magic bags? Do they burst if filled with water? (If so, they're really, really badly made buckets.)

I could see an argument saying that the bag won't overload unless you try to lift that weight (which you don't have to do while the whole thing is in the water), but even that comes up short when you recall that the weight/space inside has nothing to do with how hard it is to lift the bag.

So again, why would loading a Bag of Holding with more weight than it can handle not overload it? Just becaue that weight is water?

Not to be an ogre about this, but I have an idea: Go to your favorite PC who owns a Bag or a Haversack and see what they have in there. Include weight of coins.

Any bets it's overloaded?

 

[Stormonu]

I agree with the others about it probably being airtight and no water getting in unless it was deliberately opened.

I'd also argue that if someone did deliberately try to use it as a sort of bucket, it would act like any other backpack that might be used as a bucket. It would fill to its natural capacity and the rest would overflow out. To me, the overloading would only occur if you tried to deliberately overstuff the pack. Just natural filling probably wouldn't (though throwing in one singular item, like an item shrunk catapult and enlarging it to full size, might kill it. But then again, that's a deliberate overstuff).

 

[N'raac]

What do mundane buckets have to do with magic bags? Do they burst if filled with water? (If so, they're really, really badly made buckets.)

What do physics in any form have to do with magic bags? That includes whether gravity applies, whether water rushes in and whether holding it upside down would change anything.

If gravity does not apply, why can't we hold it rightside up? The water should not follow gravity down into the bag if gravity does not apply.

As to "why won't it just automatically overload", "it is magic" makes a pretty fair explanation. Water rushes in and fills it to capacity. Shove a 10 pound gold ingot in and 10 pounds of water is displaced out. If we're trying to apply physics, remember that air is also not weightless, so some portion of the bag's capacity must then be used to hold that air, unless you can figure out how to start with a vacuum in the bag (not its natural state as someone inside can breathe for a time - and yet, for the same time however large the bag!).

So again, why would loading a Bag of Holding with more weight than it can handle not overload it? Just because that weight is water?

"Because the magic prevents accidental overloading" is as good an explanation as any. You consciously stuff things it? You can overload it. Water/air rushes in? Doesn't overload it.

The rules are also not clear as to whether you can perceive how close to full it is. Maybe you have to work to overstuff it.

As for Invisibility, the bag opens into a nondimensional space. It's not where the bag itself is, so the person with his head in the bat would appear to lack a head, but he still can't see outside - the nondimensional space is not adjacent to real space, separated by canvas.

 

[Greenfield]

So you're saying that it doesn't work by the rules of magic because of the rules of magic? Sorry if I'm being snarky, but the answers I'm seeing don't make any sense. I'm not invoking physics beyond what the rules call for: That objects have weight and size. That the bag has a hard limit on both isn't physics, it's just the rules for a magic item.

People seem to be saying that you can't do something stupid thoughtlessly or by accident, only on purpose. I guess I'll have to write it off to "Different DMs, different approached to the rules".

Now, why would water rush in? Because there's gravity outside the bag, and things fall. And while I believe that there's gravity inside the bag as well, even if there wasn't the water would still be pushed by the water outside, where gravity still applies. (There are spells to handle water pressure, and it's mentioned in the Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes and Stormwrack, so I'm only talking about the physics of the game as already defined in the rules.)

Now, my argument about why there's gravity inside the bag: Because the rules set a weight limit on what can be inside. If there wasn't gravity then nothing inside would have a "weight", and the rule would become meaningless. So, in effect, the rules describing the bag that say there's a weight limit to what goes inside are also saying that goes inside still has weight.

Is there some argument to say otherwise? (Other than, "Because we're in love with the idea"?)

I'm actually serious aboot that question, by the way. It isn't rhetorical or argumemtative (though I could see how someone mighttake it that way). Is there anyplace in the rules that says there's no gravity inside a Bag of Holding? I freely admit that I don't own all the books, and certainly haven't memorized even the ones I have. There might be mention of such a thing that I don't know about.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Is there some argument to say otherwise? (Other than, "Because we're in love with the idea"?)

I'm actually serious aboot that question, by the way. It isn't rhetorical or argumemtative (though I could see how someone mighttake it that way). Is there anyplace in the rules that says there's no gravity inside a Bag of Holding? I freely admit that I don't own all the books, and certainly haven't memorized even the ones I have. There might be mention of such a thing that I don't know about.

I don't claim to know all the rules to all editions, but I doubt there is anything definitive or not contradicted in some other place. What I do know is that when I play, what I hear is "I reach into my haversack and pull our the Spear of Doom" or whatever. It's a single action, accomplished in seconds, regardless of the total volume of the interdimensional storage space available. That game mechanical reason is the evidence I use to suggest that it's not a Newtonian space. Something happens that grants perfect search ability with a simple reach inside. Everything else is extrapolated from that.

When you have played, have you ever voluntarily taken longer to dig out an object that you put into your bag of holding long before, and for narrative reasons have foregone acting because the item you wanted was at the bottom of the bag? That would, of course, be awesome -- but it is not something that I think is in any way usual.

So -- no formal rules statement needed for me, and yes the idea is cool. Observations in play give me both mechanical and narrative reasons for it to be as described.

Finally, I offered my perspective only as a suggestion, to help generate ideas for a cool campaign, not as an interpretation of a specific rule. Hope that helps!

 

[Greenfield]

Well, the Haversack specifically says that the item you want is always on top, so it's not really a question for that item.

Pulling an item from a Bag of Holding, like a backpack, is a full round action. Not unreasonable for digging through a cubic meter of stuff.

As a note, you probably shouldn't store pointy things like the "Spear of Doom" in a Bag or Backpack. One poke from the inside and the bag is gone.