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D&D 5E L&L for November 18

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
But unlike other classes casters don't have their class features set in stone. They can mix and match from a humongous list of available class features (i.e. spells). So why should casters get to do everything better than you AND then swap that ability out for whatever other subject they want to trump today?
In dissent; anything that you can pick and choose between from day to day should be worse than something you have to pick once and are then stuck with. Otherwise you're making the more flexible option more powerful as well.


This kind of reasoning is what makes sorcerers go cry in a corner, as a sorcerer each spell you pick isn't something casual, but a character defining commitment, not something you can casually drop. A sorcerer picking detect secret doors, knock and invisibility isn't doing it just to adapt temporally to the situations, is making an statement that he/she wants to cover that role on a permanent basis. Doing so and being ineffective because "spells gotta suck since you can swap them casually even if you really can't" is paying a disservice to the class.
 

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howandwhy99

Adventurer
This sounds like a hierarchy of category types, all components of which are character abilities. I mean, the article says, "A priority ranking for D&D is a list of character option categories, such as classes and proficiencies."

I'd ask why getting, for instance, lowlight vision as part of the class category means it must be more powerful (game effective) than when gained in the race category? What's the point?

My suggestion is not necessarily to drop the importance of game elements as prioritized, but quit them from being character centric. Why are abilities more powerful when gained from class improvement than standard race packages? Maybe some are and some aren't. There are simply too many factors generalized in those statistics to draw easy conclusions. Each statistic is different and are reach differently by different things, whether they people, places, things, ideas, or whatever.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I've had an idea floating around in my head about introducing a class of spells that take longer to prepare than 1 night rest, and calling them "weeklies." Basically spells that you can't prepare out in the wild, you need preparation that can only be done in a safe place over a period of several days. Put the arcane big blasts or encounter bypassers, and the divine big heals, as spells that you can only do once per adventure.

Honestly, in an "Adventuring Day" kind of model, 4e's encounters become Daily abilities, leaving 4e's "Dailies" as extra-double-plus good somethings...and I'm totally fond of the idea of some big magic effects requiring that you essentially can only cast them "at home."
 

the Jester

Legend
Sound like what I did in my 4e game. While travelling, they didn't get a full rest until after 3 encounters. Since you get back encounter powers and have a good supply of healing surges to spend, it worked well mechanically. I don't really like the gamist feeling it gives though. If anyone have a suggestion for making the fluff work, I would really appreciate it. :)

I recently ran an Underdark crawl where the pcs could only get an extended rest is certain designated safe areas.

I've also heard suggested the idea of changing an extended rest from basically overnight to a week long or something.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Chalk me up as another person who thinks spells ought to be rated lower than feats.

First, casters have a pretty easy time adjusting their selection of spells as they go. Beyond the basic ability to change loadout every single day, they (or at least some of them) can recover spent slots, prepare spells in a matter of minutes (remember that you don't have to prepare all spells at once), use ritual versions, or employ scrolls and potions. A feat, meanwhile, is selected once at the expense of increasing ability scores and is set in stone forever after.

Not all casters though. A bard doesn't has quite that ability (and I expect sorcerer won't either), bards also pick a spell and they become set in stone forever (or at least as long as it takes to level up and retrain, just like feats)

Second, feats are rare. You don't really get that many of them. The Fighter is arguably the feat poster child and he gets seven of them at most by the time he's level 18. The Mage has for more tools at his disposal than that.
Equally at 18th level a Bard only has 10 spells known while a Mage knows at least 38

Third, feats gobble up your ability score improvements. You are making a very real opportunity cost by selecting a feat. Spells don't have that. They only compete with other spells, but it's not as if simply holding prepared spells reduces your stats (now there's an idea for a game...).
Granted, not as high an oportunity cost for bards, but still an important opportunity cost, if a bard has picked lots of spells that end up never being relevant he/she has lost a lot of effective power, for an spontaneous caster not knowing the right spell is as good as not having any spell slot, you still end up not casting anything

Fourth, there is an argument that spell selection has to be carefully made because some spells can wind up being useless. That's a double-sided sword though that punishes feats far more severely, because feats also have to be selected beforehand... and can still wind up being of little help. But due to the factors listed above, spells can both adjust more quickly (or even at all) and there's a good chance that where one spell is useless, another one prevails. Did the Mage prepare Invisibility only to be foiled by a portcullis? Should he have prepared Spider Climb instead? Gosh, if only if you could prepare and use both at once... Oh wait, that's right, you can. At level three.
For a bard every spell known counts, and she cannot change them on the run at all. Did your bard learned Charm person, sleep, disguise self and comprehend languages just to be thrown against hordes and hordes of undead?, though luck, hope you make a better selection for the next campaign

A feat that never came up during an adventure was an unfortunate waste. A spell that never came up during an adventure was a trivially small investment, and was replaced the next morning with a spell that did come in handy.
For a bard a spell that never came up during an adventure is equally a waste, or even worse, because unlike a feat, spellcasting is a class ability, if a class x with Loremaster, never had a chance to use the extra languages or lores, well he/she can still fully function otherwise, if a bard's spell selection results useless for a given adventure, she functions at half capacity for the full adventure.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Honestly, in an "Adventuring Day" kind of model, 4e's encounters become Daily abilities, leaving 4e's "Dailies" as extra-double-plus good somethings...and I'm totally fond of the idea of some big magic effects requiring that you essentially can only cast them "at home."
Exactly what I was thinking. At-wills are the same, encounters become dailies. An "adventuring day" is just a series of possible smaller encounters, almost like an encounter with waves in 4e, but differentiated by geography. Then map the healing resources to a paradigm where a smaller rest (an "adventuring day") increases your short-term health (i.e. HP) while slowly draining your long-term resources (be they healing spells, potions, wands, healing surges, what have you). Your long-term resources can only be replenished by a respite in civilization, which then gives the adventure site time to recharge and change based on what the party has accomplished.
 

Tortoise

First Post
But unlike other classes casters don't have their class features set in stone. They can mix and match from a humongous list of available class features (i.e. spells). So why should casters get to do everything better than you AND then swap that ability out for whatever other subject they want to trump today?

Spells are limited in number of times they can be used and the other character can use their natural ability all the time.

I also hesitate when they mention Invisibility. For example: you need to cross a wide open town square that nobody is in, in broad daylight, that is being watched by guards, how can someone use stealth to cross the square without being seen better than someone with invisibility? I think they got this one wrong.
 

This kind of reasoning is what makes sorcerers go cry in a corner, as a sorcerer each spell you pick isn't something casual, but a character defining commitment, not something you can casually drop. A sorcerer picking detect secret doors, knock and invisibility isn't doing it just to adapt temporally to the situations, is making an statement that he/she wants to cover that role on a permanent basis. Doing so and being ineffective because "spells gotta suck since you can swap them casually even if you really can't" is paying a disservice to the class.

Whie I undertand your point, it does sort of assume that the only way they can make a Sorceror is the way it was done in 3rd edition. And even if that's the case, giving other casters massive power and versatility beause otherwise Sorcerors would be weak implies two things. One, that class balance is important enough for the rules to be made to accomodate Sorcerors; two, that Sorcerors, a class that has very little history in D&D, are important enough to require that accomodation to be made in a way that clearly makes non-caster classes weaker in both versatility and power to casters.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think the idea is spells don't give many number bonuses. Advantage at best. Invisibilty doesnt help your stealth check. Charm doesn't give a bous to the Cha check. Class and race give number bonuses. Feats give the weakest bonus on level.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
They explicitly mention their priority ranking:
I know. That's the source of my "sadness" at feats being on the bottom.
They do mention that:

Which I think is just what I want out of a flexible system. Sure, the Rogue is best at sneaking to begin with, but if you have a wizard that takes the assassin background, a sneaky race and gets spells such as invisibility, he will be as good at sneaking as a Rogue, or even better than your "standard" Rogue. He will be worse than other wizards in things like pure damage from his spells or some other area.
I don't mind class being on top. I just wish feats were worth more than background and race. Just my preference.
 

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