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D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: Worlds of D&D

Hussar

Legend
The problem with that approach though is some of us don't want chocolate in our peanut butter. If you tie all the settings together then the settings bleed into each other. Planescape IMO was particularly egregious for this.

Not only was some devil prince now the same in every setting but he also had to follow the dictates of other settings as well.

Is Tiamat a ruler of the first plane of Hell or is she the dark goddess of Dragonlance? If the settings are distinct then you can have both. If the settings are all linked then which one is she?
 

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Shemeska

Adventurer
If the settings are distinct then you can have both. If the settings are all linked then which one is she?

You don't have to have it as a binary choice.

There are settings that have historically been tied together via the Great Wheel such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Darksun (albeit largely sealed off, it was part of the same cosmology), Ravenloft, and then Spelljammer and Planescape as metasettings. You've also got Dragonlance which was part of the Wheel technically, but the original creators didn't want it there, so I'm inclined to have any future versions not include it just to respect their vision.

Then you've got settings like Eberron which were explicitly created with their own cosmology. As such let's keep it distinct and retain that cosmology unique to it. On the same footing is the 4e PoL Nentir Vale setting which I'd prefer to stay its own thing, with its own cosmology, not part of the Wheel.

As for any future settings, let the creators of those settings decide if they want to have them distinct unto themselves, or to be integrated into any shared cosmologies. I'm a big fan of the concept as in 2e Planescape, but not so much when you force settings into a different cosmology different to the one they had previously or for multiple editions already (see 4e's World Axis planes and its content rather aggressively pushed in various form into settings other than Nentir Vale).
 

Hussar

Legend
See Shemeska, you talk about greyhawk and FR being tied together. Thing is, they weren't to begin with. Not particularly anyway. They both used the Great Wheel, but there was nothing to say that it was the same Great wheel.

Then Planescape came along and rammed them together. Suddenly you had Bane rubbing shoulders with Iuz because everything had to fit into this single vision meta setting.

To me, that did a disservice to both settings. It watered them both down. As soon as you went planar, it didn't matter which setting was your base, it was all Planescape all the time.

No thanks. I don't want Boccob hanging with aumanator just because PS declares that they should be on the same plane.

Meta settings enforce vanilla on everyone. Settings and their cosmologies should always be distinct.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
See Shemeska, you talk about greyhawk and FR being tied together. Thing is, they weren't to begin with. Not particularly anyway. They both used the Great Wheel, but there was nothing to say that it was the same Great wheel.

Then Planescape came along and rammed them together.

There were explicit crossovers between the two prior to Planescape.
 

"Planescape" did not decide to make FR and GH parts of the same metaverse. TSR did. My hazy memory suggests Ed Greenwood doing crossovers in Dragon Magazine long before Planescape was a thing.

Planescape is simply the setting that TSR used to expand their particular view of the planes.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
"Planescape" did not decide to make FR and GH parts of the same metaverse. TSR did. My hazy memory suggests Ed Greenwood doing crossovers in Dragon Magazine long before Planescape was a thing.

The simplest example is that Bigby's Crushing Hand was still called Bigby's Crushing Hand in Faerun, while other AD&D1 settings (Dragonlance) specifically excluded all named spells and magical items. It has been a really long time but I'm pretty sure the FR grey box specifically calls out that this is intentional.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
A halfling, a kender and a cannibal Athasian halting are standing side by side. How different are they from each other physically? ...
Lets find out. Crunch, crunch, crunch.
The dragon says, cannibal athasian is too tough, the kender too lean, and the Halfling is just right. B-)
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I'm a big fan of the concept as in 2e Planescape, but not so much when you force settings into a different cosmology different to the one they had previously or for multiple editions already (see 4e's World Axis planes and its content rather aggressively pushed in various form into settings other than Nentir Vale).

I don't think it is that simple. You blow a big hole in the Tiamat example by pointing out that Krynn, the (Krynnish) Abyss, and Takhisis were never supposed to be part of the Great Wheel, and you're right to do so, but there are plenty of examples of core D&D mythology that got passed over in the creation of Planescape. My favorite example (and one of the oldest) is the Wind Dukes of Aaqa.

The Wind Dukes of Aaqa are original D&D stuff, first appearing in the 1976 Eldritch Wizardry booklet, in the description of the Rod of Seven Parts. Planescape launched in 1994, but the Wind Dukes of Aaqa don't enter the new setting for two years, with the release of the 1996 Rod of Seven Parts boxed set. When they do show up they have been well and truly shoehorned into the Planescape lore. Accommodating the Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider into what has been created for the tanar'ri requires even more force, and the result feels like a bad mashup.

Planescape, like the World Axis, was largely created out of whole cloth for the 1994 release. It drew on existing material in broad strokes, but Planescape ignored at least as much detail in pre-existing material as it adopted. Whole planes changed names, even geography. The World Axis was more destructive, absolutely, but it was more destructive simply because in 2008 there was a lot more to destroy than there was in 1994 -- again, because Planescape invented most of it between 1994 and 2000.

The reason why I have a soft spot for the World Axis is because it tries to be a part of D&D. It acknowledges the fact that a D&D world's cosmology would impact the D&D world, and it is designed accordingly. The Wind Dukes of Aaqa are in there, as is Tharizdun, the Elder Elemental Eye, the Abyss, Mount Celestia, and a host of other classic D&D cosmological ideas, and they are presented in a way that is relevant to playing D&D in the Nentir Vale.

And that's really why the World Axis comes out slightly ahead these days when I weigh it against Planescape. Planescape is magnificent, but it just isn't relevant to playing D&D in the worlds it is supposed to support. In fact, one of the core conceits of the setting is the ignorance of "Primes" to the way things operate on the planes.

But how can the factions be /so important/ on the planes but have virtually no impact on Toril or Oerth, whose inhabitants supposedly 'believed' the outer planes into existence in the first place? Why is the Prime Material completely unaffected by the inconceivably vast conflict of the Blood War? Why are the realms of the gods /footnotes/ in Planescape, when they are the most important aspect of the planes to any prime material setting?

TL;DR:

Any "core cosmology" in D&D5 has to logically support the worlds it contains, and the fact is that Planescape just wasn't written that way. It was written to be its own strange bird -- and that's great -- but it's not going to be of any use in any "core" sense, unless all the D&D settings, old and new, are adapted to incorporate its strange birdness.

The World Axis isn't much better, to be fair. The elimination of the Great Wheel and Elemental Planes, among other aspects of classic AD&D cosmology, was just too much. What Mearls has said about the new cosmology sounds like the design team understands this. I hope they do.

And of course, if you don't want a shared cosmology, don't use it. But D&D has always had one to some degree, and the flaws of previous drafts don't invalidate the potential of future drafts.
 

gyor

Legend
I figured out awhile ago that FR isn't a setting, its a meta setting, that honestly just keeps growing.

Its been connected via novels with other settings such as the Nentir Vale, Dragonlance, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer and perhaps others. Its has two setting with in it, Kara-Tur and Al Qadim. Its moon is inhabited, it has a has a crude load of twin parrell worlds from Abier, to the Feywild, to the Shadowfell. It has unexplored contientents, its has massive divine domains such as the Gates of the Moon and the Towers of Night, Warriers Rest and Banehold, and so on. Its has an absolutely massive Underdark, with three layers each of which has an echo in another plane.

So I call FR a Metasetting.
 


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