Why simpler - much simpler - is better

[Umbran]

I'm not even going to pretend I care. Anyone who's afraid of bad words is a .

This isn't about fear. It is about the rules of these boards - Rule #1 is "Keep it civil." That includes restraining your urge to cuss.

You may think of it what you like, but we ask you to keep your language clean when posting here. Thank you.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think he was referring to the act of looking it up as being "trivial" and not the thing that was being rolled for, and using it in the sense of something that is easy to do (an action that takes an insignificant, inconsequential, or minor amount of time). I think that's a fairly common usage in math anyway...

"4.b. (of a theorem, proof, or the like) simple, transparent, or immediately evident."

See also:

"child's play
1. Something very easy to do.
2. A trivial matter."

This, thanks. And for the record I'm a maths graduate.

 

[Janx]

This, thanks. And for the record I'm a maths graduate.

that jives with my usage of the word "trivial" as well. If I have to stop, flip pages, read and/or think about how the rules work to resolve a situation, that would be "non-trivial" as my old CompSci professor used to say.

the threshold for trivial/non-trivial probably varies for each person

 

[sunshadow21]

To me, it's where the complexity is that matters. Having to look up rules every five minutes during the actual game is irritating, but then so is constantly playing 20 questions with the DM because the rules are silent on what should be a routine, basic thing to resolve. I personally love having lots of books I can pull out for character creation, as I find that part of the game really fun. 4E didn't really do much for me in large part because between the very scripted powers and the heavy reliance on DM fiat, I found that I actually have very little control over character development of my own character, whereas with 3.x/PF, even though I don't bring all of the books to the table all the time, and in fact try to minimize what I bring to the actual table, the ability to truly shape my own character is much higher because I can control and see the results of the choices I make. I like simple at the actual table when it's practical and doable, but not simplicity for the sake of simplicity; some things are just plain complicated and/or boring, including a lot of things I enjoy in a rpg, and trying to pretend otherwise is silly. In those cases, avoiding unnecessary complexity is important, but that isn't quote the same as trying to make it simple.

Making something like crafting or character creation/leveling complex isn't a problem as long as you can figure out how to do most of the complex stuff outside of the actual game time, and shooting at least a few emails back and forth between sessions or preleveling your character so that the new stats are ready to go isn't that hard.

 

[Dethklok]

Speaking of GURPS, there is an "Ultra-Lite" version of the rules which is free and fits on one page.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ultra-lite/

Nice. Have you played it?

Therefore, for the sake of the hobby, we should be imported subsidized and free versions of games to Venezuela! Just what they want, no doubt, in Venezuela...

Why would you import free versions of boring, overcomplicated games to Venezuela? Wouldn't it make more sense to attract people to the hobby by playing simple games which necessarily cost very little. Hey, people even tell me that some of these are even available for free, like GURPS ultra-light.

I don't know what kids in poor places are supposed to do to improve their lot in life. But I don't think complaining about the cost of sailing is going to help those kids get into sailing. A hobby has costs. Some more than others.

ROLEPLAYING IS FREE

Stop acting as though this hobby has costs. Anyone who has enough to survive at subsistence level has what is needed to play an RPG: their imagination.

So let's not take it out on RPGs that some kids are left out.

What is this "let's?" Your complicated RPGs are too expensive for kids, and no matter how much you may struggle, you won't nullify this fact. Because I play RPGs too, and they require no more than pencils, a handful of dice, and a few 3x5" cards; the rules are simple enough that they can be passed along orally. You and your friends can game all you want for less than a dollar.

This. A thousand times this. The biggest barrier to immersion isn't so-called disassociated mechanics. It isn't rules heavy or rules light. It isn't ... just about anything I've ever seen a theorist work on. It's simple familiarity.

No, it isn't that simple. If that were the case for everyone, then I wouldn't find familiar mechanics so jarring. Maybe what you say is true for a lot of people (in fact it I think it must be true for at least some), but it got me every time I hit someone and whittled their hp down from 64 to 59. The mechanics of typical D&D games jar me out of the fantasy every time. And poking around the Internet reveals that, evidently, I am not the only one.

 

[Jhaelen]

ROLEPLAYING IS FREE

Stop acting as though this hobby has costs. Anyone who has enough to survive at subsistence level has what is needed to play an RPG: their imagination.

Since you seem to be repeating yourself, let me re-iterate, too:
Roleplaying is free - playing roleplaying games isn't.

You keep blabbing about 'all you need is your imagination'. It's simply not true, unless all you're doing is playing make-believe.

 

[Neonchameleon]

ROLEPLAYING IS FREE

Stop acting as though this hobby has costs. Anyone who has enough to survive at subsistence level has what is needed to play an RPG: their imagination.

Then stop acting as though you need a published RPG rather than a simple coin to resolve disputes. Anyone who has an imagination can get by without one. Roleplaying Games as opposed to roleplaying in the abstract only needs to be free if either development and playtesting is worthless or they are released as a labour of love by people rich enough to be able to support themselves.

No, it isn't that simple. If that were the case for everyone, then I wouldn't find familiar mechanics so jarring. Maybe what you say is true for a lot of people (in fact it I think it must be true for at least some), but it got me every time I hit someone and whittled their hp down from 64 to 59. The mechanics of typical D&D games jar me out of the fantasy every time. And poking around the Internet reveals that, evidently, I am not the only one.

I said the biggest, not the only. Hit points are a ridiculous gamist mechanic that bear no resemblance to the real world.

 

[Janx]

Since you seem to be repeating yourself, let me re-iterate, too:
Roleplaying is free - playing roleplaying games isn't.

You keep blabbing about 'all you need is your imagination'. It's simply not true, unless all you're doing is playing make-believe.

Indeed.

I am not sure the thought has occurred to him that Janx wants to play D&D 3.x. I don't want to play a simpler game. I don't want to play a more complicated game.

I don't want to play with people who can't afford the $10-$30 Player's handbook (or go to d20srd.org) as people who can't afford the fundamentals usually have drama issues that spill over into keeping a game running smoothly. Somebody else has chimed in that they are poor but can manage the one-time costs of gaming just fine. Because they got their feces coagulated.

I don't care to play a game that can be explained in one sitting. I prefer meatier rules because my brain enjoys a certain amount of complexity to its entertainments.

That says nothing to the quality of simpler games, merely that they are not my cup of tea.

Therefore, simpler is better is a subject opinion, and is useless as a matter of debate.

As that one guy says, "play what you like"

 

[jtolman3]

That is jsut Unfair... Everyone has a right to RPGs...

the Gubment needs to provide affordable RPGS!!

Just as Long as they Promise "If I like My RPG And I Like My GM I can Keep My RPG And Keep My GM!"

 

[Argyle King]

Nice. Have you played it?

I haven't tried Ultra-Lite.

I did start with Lite (which is also free) though. Now that I have the books I don't use it much, but I know a few people who use GURPS Lite and then just add a few bits and pieces from the full books.


GURPS Lite http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004

GURPS Ultra-Lite http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0032

...and a free adventure http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0031