Why would a dragon NOT take Antimagic field?

[NuSair]

If you are under a lead cone, you most certainly have cut off Line of Effect, which is what an AMF relies on to suppress magic.


You misunderestimate me. If you cast the Shrink Item spell on an item to shrink it, the resulting shrunken item will be restored to its normal state when the magic effect on it is suppressed - say, by an anti-magic field.

[h=5]Just to expand

Line of Effect[/h]A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

 

[Dark Dragon]

[h=5]Just to expand

Line of Effect[/h]A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

Hmmm, this is interesting: does the AMF NOT extend into a dragon's stomach? If you take the wording strictly, starts the emanation OUTSIDE the dragon, e.g., on its snout, back, claw, or anything else the creature defines as point of origin at the time of casting of AMF?!

 

[Dark Dragon]

Just for fun, I have a core level 20 sorcerer which we could use to try and establish if there are any weaknesses with the dragon's plans.

What is the field of battle, and what is the dragon's method of attack?

Although I don't expect any players of my group to be around, I still want to give a spoiler alert first. So... isoChron, DON'T READ ANY FURTHER!!!







Now, as requested...

The battle field is the slope of an erupting volcano of some 3000 ft height. The volcano is producing a large ash column with a sporadical ejection of lava bombs from the central crater (25 % chance per round that a 1-ft-sized bomb lands in a 90x90 ft area (i.e., size of a small battle map), chance that it may hit a creature is 1 % per 5 ft. square of the creature => large creatures will be hit more often). It becomes obvious that the volcano is rapidly increasing its activity and a major eruption is about to take place.

The slope is about 25 degrees, the surface is rocky and covered with ash. No run and no charge upwards. Each movement enforces a Balance check DC 12 (10 for the slope + 2 for the ash). Steep gullies are present here and there, making movement in straight lines difficult.

The PCs stayed in an old mining complex created by fire giants in the volcano long ago before it resumed activity. They will exit the complex at night (why see below) via a small cavern in the volcano's flank at about half-height, i.e. 1500 ft above the surrounding landscape. The entry of the cavern will collapse shortly after their exit due to the increasing volcanic activity: parts of the mine tunnels work as a vent for volcanic gasses, and hot ash and lava is blown out of the cavern at the volcano's flank (see the eruption of Mt. St. Helens 1980, and you'll understand what I mean).

The ash column blocks sun- and moonlight, the ash clouds are about 200 ft. above the surface. The ongoing eruption creates a lot of noise, imposing a -10 circumstance penalty to Listen checks.

The evil party is/was a strong cell of the Cult of the Dragon:
1 very old red dragon (supporting the cult and considering to be transformed into a dracolich)
1 necromancer 13
1 cleric 9 of Velsharoon
1 wizard level 7
4 orcs bbn 2/ftr 2 (the remaining melee force of the local cell, the rest was wiped out...mostly by the pseudodragon familiars of the PCs )
10 gnolls of a local tribe, paid by the cult for scouting and fending off weak intruders; all ftr 1/bbn 1

The plan
The fighters are scattered behind rocks, in gullies, all at different locations. None of these fighters is closer than 40 ft to the next one (no mass-annihilation via fireballs). They will fight with longbows, and change to battle axes if pressed into melee. They are sacrificed by the cultists in order to disperse the party and hopefully deplete the spell pools of the PC casters.

The three cultists are well hidden behind an Illusory Wall 20 ft. uphill and 100 ft. left of the entry of the cavern to have a good view onto the battle field. They will try to interfere with enemy casters only when the party is about to regroup for retreat. They have cast Darkvision. Glowing lava bombs and illuminate local ptaches of the battle field, but concealment is a nasty thing still. Gnolls and orcs have darkvision

The dragon has cast Disguise Self to camouflage himself as a rock formation (heck, I've seen a dragon-like rock formation on Iceland, in Drekagil) and is located between the rocks, far uphill above the cavern (some 150 ft.).

Once the fight begins, the dragon should act... Options:
Round 1: AMF, or just fire-breath the group as long as it is packed together? Other options?
Round 2: retreat into the ash cloud, cast AMF? Or if AMF is already up: grab a nice hot lava bomb?
Round 3: drop the bomb, fly-by and snatch a caster?


The adventurers: a sub-optimized epic group (level 25), strongly under-equipped (we agreed on a campaign with less magic items), but in possession of an evil artefact related to time (Klorr's Timepiece, but modified):

2 human melee types (ftr, ftr/mnk/drd 8)
2 arcane casters, one human, one elf (mnk/wiz/enlightened fist (CL 23), rog/warmage/daggerspell mage (arcane CL 14)/favored soul 8)
1 human divine caster (mnk/clr 14/pious templar 4)
1 juvenile vampiric brass dragon (brd 4/spellfire channeler 6). Don't ask about his background, it is a very long story. His spellfire is drained due to previous actions, 6 levels left.
1 very young brass dragon, brother of the juvenile dragon. The weakest member (7 HD only), a NPC, but the group owes him a lot and should protect him.

 

[Derren]

Round 1: Haste, AMF, charge casters
Round 2: Grab/Snatch caster, fly to volcano
Round 3: Dive into lava
Round 4: Dive half a round, release caster, go up again
Round 5: Go to 2.

 

[Greenfield]

Emanation effects typically have to be centered at a grid junction. The area is measured from there.

AMF is one of the odd ones in that it specifies that it's centered on a creature.

One could rule that it automatically includes the creature, plus 10 feet, and that wouldn't be unreasonable. It's not, however, the way such spells normally work according to RAW. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the SRD an emanation radiates from the "point of origin", which taken literally means a single point, not a creature or area.)

Someone suggested conjuration spells centering outside the AMF as a way to hurt the dragon. Orb spells and Meteor Swarm were mentioned.

By the rules, I don't see how that works. Area effects that overlap with an AMF don't include the AMF in their area, per RAW.

Orb spells have to make contact with the target, and they blink out as soon as they enter the AMF, fully suppressed by the field.

You might drop a Wall of Iron on the caster, since that spell duration is instantaneous (i.e. the wall is the result of magic, rather than being magic in and of itself). But any kind of conjured energy type is going to fail, per RAW.

So yeah, a dragon with an AMF is a fearsome thing. He loses his breath weapon and is reduced to pure melee, but since he's pretty good at pure melee, particularly against opponents whose 45+ ACs depend on magic effects, it's very much a winning tactic.

My own answer would be to cast a 20x20 Force Cage around myself (presuming that the DM rules that it, like Force Wall isn't affected by AMF), and then missile away through the openings in the Cage. Alchemical attacks are also good. Any side the Dragon comes to, I can be out of his AMF emanation, so I still get all of my magical bonuses to my weapon's "to hit", even if the arrows lose the magical damage bonus when they enter the AMF.

Oh, and remember to poison the arrows. Yeah, he's got a Dragon's Saves, but anyone can roll a 1, given enough opportunities.

 

[Dandu]

Hmmm, this is interesting: does the AMF NOT extend into a dragon's stomach? If you take the wording strictly, starts the emanation OUTSIDE the dragon, e.g., on its snout, back, claw, or anything else the creature defines as point of origin at the time of casting of AMF?!

Interestingly,

[h=5]Area[/h]Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

Given how AMF works (10ft radius emanation from the grid intersection of one of your squares) you may be leaving other party members unaffected, depending on their grouping.

Round 1: Haste, AMF, charge casters
Round 2: Grab/Snatch caster, fly to volcano
Round 3: Dive into lava
Round 4: Dive half a round, release caster, go up again
Round 5: Go to 2.

1. You can't cast two spells in a round unless you quicken one of them.
2. AMF suppresses the effects of Haste.

Moving ino the smoke cloud on the first round to cat AMF means you have to wait until round 2 i order to attack, at whichpoint hte PCs may have thrown up some kind of defense. Casting AMF on the first round and charging in might bet he best idea, as your group probably doesn't have a defense against it. (Unless someone travels with a readied action to throw up a Wall of Force, cast Dimension Door, etc).

Someone suggested conjuration spells centering outside the AMF as a way to hurt the dragon. Orb spells and Meteor Swarm were mentioned.

By the rules, I don't see how that works. Area effects that overlap with an AMF don't include the AMF in their area, per RAW.

Orb spells have to make contact with the target, and they blink out as soon as they enter the AMF, fully suppressed by the field.

You might drop a Wall of Iron on the caster, since that spell duration is instantaneous (i.e. the wall is the result of magic, rather than being magic in and of itself). But any kind of conjured energy type is going to fail, per RAW.

(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Wall of Iron has a duration of instantaneous, as do Orbs.

 

[Derren]

1. You can't cast two spells in a round unless you quicken one of them.
2. AMF suppresses the effects of Haste.

Right, no clue why I thought that was a good idea.

Still, the tactic stays the same. AMF, Grab, Lava bath.

 

[Deset Gled]

Someone suggested conjuration spells centering outside the AMF as a way to hurt the dragon. Orb spells and Meteor Swarm were mentioned.

By the rules, I don't see how that works.

...

But any kind of conjured energy type is going to fail, per RAW.

Any kind of evoked energy type is going to fail. Or any non-instantaneous conjured energy.

Per the rules:

Conjuration: Creation

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

This is one of the main reasons the Orb spells were created: to get around Spell Resistance and Anti-magic Fields. It's also what makes them so cheesy, and why I'm not a fan of them. But it is RAW.

Edit: Bah, ninja'ed by Dandu while looking up the right section.

 

[Greenfield]

Wall of Iron has a duration of instantaneous, as do Orbs.

So, for that matter, do spells like Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Acid Arrow. Casting them into an AMF still fails, since they cease to exist as they enter.

Conjuring a permanent, non-magical material, as Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone do, will work if cast outside of the field. Gravity handles the rest.

Trying to project magical energy into an AMF is a failure, every time.

If I'm wrong, please provide a link, clip, or reference to the rule that says so. I'm willing to be corrected, but it will take an actual rule reference to do it.

 

[Dandu]

This is one of the main reasons the Orb spells were created: to get around Spell Resistance and Anti-magic Fields. It's also what makes them so cheesy, and why I'm not a fan of them. But it is RAW.

Edit: Bah, ninja'ed by Dandu while looking up the right section.

If Orbs are too cheesy, there's always Melf's Unicorn Arrow.

So, for that matter, do spells like

Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Acid Arrow. Casting them into an AMF still fails, since they cease to exist as they enter.

Conjuring a permanent, non-magical material, as Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone do, will work if cast outside of the field. Gravity handles the rest.

Trying to project magical energy into an AMF is a failure, every time.

If I'm wrong, please provide a link, clip, or reference to the rule that says so. I'm willing to be corrected, but it will take an actual rule reference to do it.

OBJECTION!

Magic Missile and Lightning Bolt are Evocations, so they don't count as instantaneous conjurations. Acid Arrow has a duration of 1 round + 1 round/caster level, so while it is is conjuration, it is not instantaneous.

The rules references have been laid out before you in black and white. Instantaneous conjurations are not affected by the AMF spell.

Would you care to cite a source saying that energy effect flat-out cannot penetrate an AMF?