Pathfinder 1E I have been asked to try this again

[GMforPowergamers]

Kudos to you, but from GMforpowergamer's various ENworld posts, we know that this isn't his first time playing PF. This is like the umpteenth time your mother told you to try [insert your least favorite veggie] when you were growing up, because hey, this time she steamed it instead of boiling it!

If I do this it will be my third campaign and I also did 2 stand alone and a very short adventure... Mine is an informed dislike. I try to force myself some times because it is friends... but it ends up reminding me how much better our house rules and work arounds were at the end of 3.5...

Sorry if you covered this earlier, but what normally happens when one or more players don't like the game the GM wants to run?

that doesn't come up often, last time it did was 4 or so years ago and we lost a couple players that now have there own thing they do...

(And how exactly did your Captain Planet situation come about?)

well I'm not sure what you mean about captain planet, the short answer is of 5 people total (1 will GM and 4 will play) I drive 3 of them to game including this would be DM... if I don't go the other 2 can not get to game location.

[sblock=longer answer] Ross (would be DM) has no license he is almost 40 and has never learned to drive. Player with problem other then me has a license but his car is on it's last legs and he doesn't like taking it on highway. we used to play up by us when we had more players, and before that we played at our FLGS and back then others drove.

As of Jan 1st we lost 2 players (well one of them stoped closer to end of Nov) because they just had twins, and it was there house (walking distance for guy with no license, and me and other had 1/2 the drive and still car pooled). so as of right now we play at almost 40 miles away at someones house, but only 1 player has there own way to get there, and to get to pick the other two up he would have to drive past the house we play at keep comeing north then get the other 2 then retrace almost 40 miles south)
[/sblock]

 

[gamerprinter]

Fighters were underpowered and boreing in 3.5 but I had book of nine swords to fix it
In pathfinder we don't

While I'm definitely not a fan of the Bo9S, that said, for those that claim to be its fans - always use the argument the it made fighters less boring. A martial adept is a separate class, that has martial capabilities, but in no way is a fighter. The martial adept classes make fighters even less interesting. A martial adept is not an archetype that you can apply to fighter - its a class you play instead of fighter. So fighter gets an even shorter end of the stick. If you're saying you get a more powerful martial class, then yes, I agree with you. But you say the Bo9S fixes the fighter - how is that?

If you're talking doing a class dip or multi-classing fighter with a martial adept, nothing in PF prevents you from class dipping or multi-classing. You can always make your fighter more interesting by multi-classing into sometihing more interesting and potentially improves your combat ability.

Also, PF is supposed to be backwards compatible (I don't use 3x in my PF, but), so its your GM that is not allowing the Bo9S, not the rule system. You're blaming Pathfinder for something that is the fault of your GM (same goes for the 3x classes he won't let you play).

If you want a martial class that is more interesting, not necessarily better, look at samurai, gunslinger, some ranger archetypes (since PF ranger is better than 3x ranger) - just like Bo9S, PF offers far more interesting martial classes to play instead of a fighter.

Finally regarding having to buy books. I only have the Core and APG as hard covers, and PDF for GMG, UC and UM (and a couple other books), however, when I do game prep or class prep, I use d20pfsrd.com (which is free for everybody) and never need to crack open a book. While I get the preference of books over PDFs or online resources - to claim your dislike of PF because you have to buy new books is completely wrong. You don't need to buy any books at all, the PRD and d20pfsrd.com solves all your book problems - you don't need them to play the whole game.

I get it if you just don't like PF enough for your preferred game system, and that's a perfectly reasonable excuse not to play. But your arguments that you've posted why you don't like PF, as explained above, are mostly invalid.

Edit: I also see that you don't care for the power-ups to all the classes in PF vs. 3x, which I can accept, but really doesn't make sense to me. For me, without having to go to high levels, my PC gets to do more interesting stuff as he levels up - while still be a lower level class. Even back in 3x, my players were constantly looking for other ways to improve their class builds, having to deal with dead levels (nothing gained beyond some more hit points and skill points) definitely kept them from achieving more options. In PF, you gain feats faster, you get something cool in every class with every level up. How could that be a detriment or negative factor regarding PF somehow being less because of it? I can accept that's how you feel, but as said, I cannot conceive why that's an issue... (especially for someone with "powergamer" as part of their name - the class power-ups should be a perfect addition for the power gamer - which I am not.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

While I'm definitely not a fan of the Bo9S, that said, for those that claim to be its fans - always use the argument the it made fighters less boring. A martial adept is a separate class, that has martial capabilities, but in no way is a fighter. The martial adept classes make fighters even less interesting. A martial adept is not an archetype that you can apply to fighter - its a class you play instead of fighter. So fighter gets an even shorter end of the stick. If you're saying you get a more powerful martial class, then yes, I agree with you. But you say the Bo9S fixes the fighter - how is that?

ok I will explain this again. I have multi times said, we were not using half the base classes (Including fighter) except for the odd dip at the end of 3.5... even before 4e was announced let alone pathfinder. The classes we used were not upgraded in pathfinder...

Also, PF is supposed to be backwards compatible (I don't use 3x in my PF, but), so its your GM that is not allowing the Bo9S, not the rule system. You're blaming Pathfinder for something that is the fault of your GM (same goes for the 3x classes he won't let you play).

everyone online says that... including the 'but not in my game' but I am yet to find someon willing to do it IRL... to be fair the DM in question has not gotten back to me yet.

Finally regarding having to buy books. I only have the Core and APG as hard covers, and PDF for GMG, UC and UM (and a couple other books), however, when I do game prep or class prep, I use d20pfsrd.com (which is free for everybody) and never need to crack open a book. While I get the preference of books over PDFs or online resources - to claim your dislike of PF because you have to buy new books is completely wrong. You don't need to buy any books at all, the PRD and d20pfsrd.com solves all your book problems - you don't need them to play the whole game.

I also have the SRD for 3.5... so same thing...

Edit: I also see that you don't care for the power-ups to all the classes in PF vs. 3x, which I can accept, but really doesn't make sense to me. For me, without having to go to high levels, my PC gets to do more interesting stuff as he levels up - while still be a lower level class. Even back in 3x, my players were constantly looking for other ways to improve their class builds, having to deal with dead levels (nothing gained beyond some more hit points and skill points) definitely kept them from achieving more options. In PF, you gain feats faster, you get something cool in every class with every level up. How could that be a detriment or negative factor regarding PF somehow being less because of it? I can accept that's how you feel, but as said, I cannot conceive why that's an issue... (especially for someone with "powergamer" as part of their name - the class power-ups should be a perfect addition for the power gamer - which I am not.)

There is a lot of good things in pathfinder... including things I would take back to 3.5 but overall I dislike the system and cost. at will cantrips and skills and CMB/CMD and

pathfinder could have sold me twice... either just adding to 3.5 or fixing the problems of 3.5 My problem is they did neaither well (IMO)...

look at spells at the end of 3.5 like troll form or nymph form... polymorph one at a time. if they did that in stead of polymorph... then yea.



ALso in the 90's I took the name I have now on the TSR boards on AOL... I kept the name at the WotC boards, and brought it here and OotS and a few others it hasn't really fit in more then ten years...

 

[gamerprinter]

ok I will explain this again. I have multi times said, we were not using half the base classes (Including fighter) except for the odd dip at the end of 3.5... even before 4e was announced let alone pathfinder. The classes we used were not upgraded in pathfinder...

Sorry, I don't read every thread, and really didn't know that you ever explained that before. I just read the first page of this thread and posted a response. Yeah, that would make a difference.

everyone online says that... including the 'but not in my game' but I am yet to find someon willing to do it IRL... to be fair the DM in question has not gotten back to me yet.

I don't disagree, but what the public might choose does not dismiss that you can choose what can be backwards compatible if you want... (I didn't say that those 3x classes you wanted to play, might need to run through the 'conversion rules' adding a couple feats, etc.)

I also have the SRD for 3.5... so same thing...

Yes, but no, the 3.5 SRD is missing huge chunks of rules. I had to buy the Bo9S to learn that I hated it, I couldn't look on 3.5 SRD and saved my money on that debacle. Sorry, I know you like it, and that's perfectly fine. I'll even confuse you further by saying I almost never play casters, almost always rangers, paladins, fighters (and other PF martial classes), yet I still cannot stand the Bo9S. So it isn't that wizards are somehow diminished, I don't care to play a wizard, ever (except as an NPC when GMing).

Both the PRD and d20pfsrd.com has it all, or is in the process of updating, including eratta. The AP specific traits, monsters and such aren't always included, but that's an IP issue and technically only apply to each specific AP. Even 3PP material (if you allow that) exists on d20pfsrd.com - I got stuff in there!

There is a lot of good things in pathfinder... including things I would take back to 3.5 but overall I dislike the system and cost. at will cantrips and skills and CMB/CMD

and pathfinder could have sold me twice... either just adding to 3.5 or fixing the problems of 3.5 My problem is they did neaither well (IMO)...

look at spells at the end of 3.5 like troll form or nymph form... polymorph one at a time. if they did that in stead of polymorph... then yea.

My players don't care for CMB/CMD either, they want the chance to roll good on opposition roll, so we don't use it. I'd rather use CMB/CMD, but I adapt to my group. The point is, if you're GMing a PF game, chuck what you don't want, house-ruling is not against the grain of PF. If you're looking for the perfect game that doesn't need house-ruling, you can only do that yourself, because a single system cannot cover what every possible player will like or dislike mechanically about any particular game - you always adapt the rules to best play for your group. They might be out there, but I've never met a 'purist' for any edition I've played.

ALso in the 90's I took the name I have now on the TSR boards on AOL... I kept the name at the WotC boards, and brought it here and OotS and a few others it hasn't really fit in more then ten years...

Ah, I should have put a smiley face, as that last paranthetic line was supposed to be 'somewhat humorous'.

 

[Jester David]

so there are 3 "books" warder, stalker and warlord... so I can pay$8 each to get someone else's interpretation of the Bo9S, or I can just play 3.5 pay $0 more then I already have, and have all the classes I want.

I was providing options, trying to give you the most possible choices.
And, again, there is a good chance the classes will be OGL and free on d20pfsd.com for a total cost of $0. Like most Pathfinder options.

Some how this is less of a money grad then the time WotC redid all the rules of the game making it far more balanced and fair...

Well… this is being done by a small publisher (i.e. people doing it out-of-pocket in their free time) because there’s an audience that wants Bo9S classes balanced for Pathfinder. They are doing it knowing they’re likely to only sell a few hundred copies and might barely turn a profit (if they don’t lose money), because most people will pirate or turn to d20pfsrd.com.
So it’s not much of a cash grab as much as a hole they’re throwing their money into while asking for a couple of bucks to minimize the financial loss.


That’s a huge difference from the leading name in the industry not playtesting the game enough, so they need to make some major revisions a couple years after launch.

you know I am getting to the point where I wonder if people understand the idea of not wanting to pay for a revision.

You had two major complaints:
1) Having to buy new books
2) Not wanting a boring fighter.


I thought I’d give you the option, to see which complaint was stronger: not spending money or boring fighters. You might be hesitant to spend but willing to drop a few bucks for a non-boring fighter. Or you might want to save your money but only have the boring fighter. At least this way you had the option.
Of course, there are currently something like twenty official classes in the game (thirty if you count the playtest classes). So there are plenty of options other than the fighter. BUT if you really wanted a fighter type class and the paladin, ranger, brawler, magus, cavalier, or war priest just didn’t work for you (and your GM was dead set against the late 3e classes) then you had another alternative.

You know what I totally would buy... alchemist and Magus and Gunslinger for 3.5... you know new things that add to my games, but I am not in the mood for there powergaming wizards and clerics that need 'more then spells' when spells are the most powerful thing in the game.

Yes, we get it, you don’t like Quadratic Wizards/ Linear Fighters. That horse has been beaten so much in the past fifteen years there’s not even skin left.
Yes, the balance was imperfect. We all know. We just stopped caring or it doesn’t affect our games. And beating the skeletal horse isn't going to improve you friend's game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I was providing options, trying to give you the most possible choices.
And, again, there is a good chance the classes will be OGL and free on d20pfsd.com for a total cost of $0. Like most Pathfinder options.

not that I can find.

You had two major complaints:
1) Having to buy new books
2) Not wanting a boring fighter.

I have both problems, they go better togather when you realize I have books that fix the problem for me... I already bought them. they come in 2 flavors 1) patch by Bo9S, 2) full rewrite by 4e.

I thought I’d give you the option, to see which complaint was stronger: not spending money or boring fighters. You might be hesitant to spend but willing to drop a few bucks for a non-boring fighter. Or you might want to save your money but only have the boring fighter. At least this way you had the option.

I understand the choice, but I don't like either option when I have 3 book shelves full of other games we can play.

Of course, there are currently something like twenty official classes in the game (thirty if you count the playtest classes). So there are plenty of options other than the fighter. BUT if you really wanted a fighter type class and the paladin, ranger, brawler, magus, cavalier, or war priest just didn’t work for you (and your GM was dead set against the late 3e classes) then you had another alternative.

ok I'm sorry I snaped, your right... I have options.

Yes, we get it, you don’t like Quadratic Wizards/ Linear Fighters. That horse has been beaten so much in the past fifteen years there’s not even skin left.

OK, 15 years (maybe more I'm sure people complained back in 2e too) of beating the dead horse, and I hope that means you know that it annoys some of us...

Yes, the balance was imperfect. We all know. We just stopped caring or it doesn’t affect our games. And beating the skeletal horse isn't going to improve you friend's game.

OK, so how do we improve Ross's game?
Do you have house rule suggestions?



I have now heard from the person who's house it is we play at... He was dumbstruck, he isn't too found of 3.5 or pathfinder either and knows me and Kurt really don't like it. He thinks this is going to be a major issue, and thinks Ross is crazy for pitching it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Does anyone have any house rules suggestions to stop LF/QW??

 

[N'raac]

It seems a lot of the group doesn't like Pathfinder (and 3e's not big for many either). We've had lots of comments on why maybe it should be OK to play Pathfinder, but I'm unclear on what the appeal is for Ross to play Pathfinder.

Is there another game system that the players favour which could be house ruled to be closer to what he wants, easier than house ruling Pathfinder to make it more acceptable to the other players?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It seems a lot of the group doesn't like Pathfinder (and 3e's not big for many either). We've had lots of comments on why maybe it should be OK to play Pathfinder, but I'm unclear on what the appeal is for Ross to play Pathfinder.

Is there another game system that the players favour which could be house ruled to be closer to what he wants, easier than house ruling Pathfinder to make it more acceptable to the other players?

games we have played: Kobolds eat my baby, 2e, 3.5, 4e, savage worlds, deadlands, starwars d6, star wars d20, rifts, oWoD(Vampire,Mage,Werewolf), Mutants and Masterminds, West end games DCU, DCU M&M 3e, Dand DNext playtest, CoC....

games we have talked about all the way up to last Saturday: Deadlands noir, 13th age, Myth and Magic (still only have pdfs), legends of the five rings... and I know I am forgetting something else newish...

We used to enjoy 2e.
3.5 we had a lot of work arounds/house rules
Kwmb is just for laughs
savage worlds has yet to pan out well
deadlands we had hit or miss
star wars d6 we enjoyed a lot, and the DCU west end games too
star wars D20 is prob a no go inless we all play jedi
rifts we ignore ALOT of rules cause we like the setting
World of darkenss we really like right now.
Mutants and Master minds and the DCU from them we have problems with (and Ross as a DM at his lowest rage quite DMing an M&M game)
CoC we can only do short adventures in
We loved D&D next and are looking forward to it


I am yet to hear back from Ross as to why he wants to run Pathfinder, or if we can convince him to do 3.5 instead...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

SO last night Ross (the DM) emailed everyone that he had gotten a bunch of Pathfinder PDFs and wanted to try the game. He did send out his 'pitch' for the game, but I'm at a loss as to what to make of it. I don't see what about it says it can't be run in any system.

He doesn't want to run 3.5 because he wants to try something new and has a half dozen new PDFs... he did say he will think about how to make the game more palatable and we can all talk on Saturday.


[sblock=the pitch]The empire is everywhere… but so is the rebels.
A thousand years ago there were a dozen kingdoms and twice that in city states dotting the land. Most of their names have been lost to history. Back then the gods were all powerful and the great Titans slept. Then came the Titan war. The titans awoke and tried to kill the gods, and the gods asked the faithful to help them defat ether ancient enemies.
A few hundred years ago there were only 4 powerful kingdoms. The Elves and Kenders had great cities built inside the trees, literally. The trees were made into extra dimensional spaces. The Dwarves and Gnomes had great cities under the mountains, where they burned material to create basic steam driven minning equipment. The humans had 2 kingdoms, in the south sorcerers who had abandoned the gods and worshiped dragons, and in the north barbarians that lived with frost giants.
Just as things settled down, three forces began to move almost at once. A necromancer in the south rose an entire city of undead. Inside the mystic woods the Orcs rallied under a new warlord with oger blood. The mountains were besieged by goblioides being led by a new Hobgoblin warlord.
It was at this time that the four kingdoms had to unite to work stop these threats, and a set of heroes emerged. The gods themselves blessed a group of soldiers creating the first Paladins. They started to turn the tide of the war, but it was still a war on three fronts and hard to do.
The Necromancer to the south struck a blow against the Gods themselves and somehow forced them from there realms to the world. This event shattered planar boundaries and the Demon hoards started pouring into the world.
When everything looked its bleakest one Paliden and his elite team surge up and took command. His name was Valruin, and he not only defeated the Necromancer and sent his undead back to the graves, he also single handily killed the leader of the Orc tribes sending them back to splintered savages. He brought the Hobgoblins to heal under himself and united 9/10 the world under his banner. The final threat was handled when he slew his own god, now in mortal form during a ritual that resealed the boundaries to the world.
That was 150 years ago. Today most of the world lives under the thumb of the God Emperor Valruin, and his councle of Dark gods and wizards. In order to assure peace his laws and commandments have become more and more evil and oppressive. Today everyone works for the state as pretty much slaves. Worship of any god other than the God Emperor is punishable by death, as is stealing, lying, and a hundred other ‘crimes’.
There are 67 regions, each controlled by a major city with their own Baron, each baron reports to the counsel under the God Emperor. There are 11 counselers, 6 Archmages, 2 Archpsions, a pitfiend, and 2 of the old evil gods. Each has 6 barons under them. The one remaining region is directly controlled by the capitol.
Using magitech there are lightning rails that connect most of the regions in a giant spider web of tracks, and airships that they also use for trade.
Recently a Rebal force has been blowing up parts of these cities. Called terrorist by some and freedom fighters by others, their goal seems to be to topple the government. There are also still wild tribes of orcs out there, and barbaric humans in the north that never swore loyalty to the God Empereor. Hidden away in most large cities are secret cults that whorship the old gods, and rumors say they have power.
PCs will be first level and be starting a small resistance trying to hook up with the rebels that are somehow making large bombs…
[/sblock]

edit: oh and a new red flag... Ross is one of those players that made me hate Kenders... and that race was droped in pitch... DANGER DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON