D&D 5E No Cantrips Module

[Sword of Spirit]

This indeed. I don't think Pathfinder thought through the societal ramifications of Create Water at will, and I've had to argue down a player who wanted to keep acid splash-ing something until it was gone. But there's a huge difference between 16-18 a day and unlimited, so I'd be OK with that.

And it will be nice if D&D Next handles these sorts of issues with better guidance. For instance, as DM I'd be a bit unhappy if my player used at-will acid splash as a way to eat through any object that was in the way. On the other hand, as a player I'd be irate (at least on the inside) if my DM didn't let me do something that darn well should work!

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I'm not sure that the utility aspect really does need to be addressed. I mean, that's mostly window dressing, rather than anything life-or-death. If you have to use torches instead of Light, and soap instead of Prestidigitation, then it's not something where you would need to compensate the mage (mechanically) for the inconvenience.

If you were going to have a full-on no-at-will module, where you removed ritual casting as well as cantrips, then you might need to compensate for the ability to Detect Magic if that's something which is incredibly vital to your game.

I'm going to assume you have never played in any survival type games.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm going to assume you have never played in any survival type games.

I did, but that was back in AD&D. One of the first lessons I took away from Pathfinder is to not try and force a survival scenario when you have infinite Create Water and Prestidigitation (among others). I would go so far as to argue that their existence in Next is a sign that you're not supposed to play that sort of game, rather than their inclusion being some sort of balancing factor for the classes.

By removing the at-will cantrips, that makes it easier to actually get back to doing a survival game, where previously it would not be feasible.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And it will be nice if D&D Next handles these sorts of issues with better guidance. For instance, as DM I'd be a bit unhappy if my player used at-will acid splash as a way to eat through any object that was in the way. On the other hand, as a player I'd be irate (at least on the inside) if my DM didn't let me do something that darn well should work!

The way I adjudicate this is that spells like acid splash just make a small hole in the door (once they chew through it's hp). Trying to destroy an object with little globs of acid is like trying to bust apart a door by poking it with a spear. You'll put holes in it, but it'll take a heck of lot more effort before the object actually breaks apart.

As for a no cantrips module, I think a feat might actually be too much. I think the idea of 1 additional 1st level every 2 levels would be sufficient. They wouldn't scale, so their value would be limited, at best. The downside of that would be that low level wizards would have to go back to crossbows.

I also liked the idea of giving wizards some basic armor and weapon proficiencies instead of cantrips. That could work too.

 

[Kobold Stew]

If one wishes to remove cantrips, there are other changes that HAVE TO follow as well.

1. At a minimum there is a need for a means to Read Magic. If you can't have it as a cantrip, then the ability needs to be integrated somehow.

2. You also need to remove the Initiate feats from the feat document (since they provide the ability to cast cantrips). For those who are suggesting removing cantrips = a feat, consider this. There are feats which grant the ability to cast two cantrips and a first-level spell, based on any of three abilities. Trading three cantrips tied to a particular stat for that seems (to me) a no-brainer. Given that feats are at least notionally balanced against one another, swapping cantrips for a feat is not a balanced exchange.

3. You also need to re-write the rules for the High Elf, and perhaps the gnome.

Other changes follow (how does magical light get created, if not through a cantrip?), which re-design the fantasy world -- new levelled spells are probably needed, etc.

Given the fact that deeper changes will be needed, I suggest that WHATEVER replaces cantrips has to include the ability to Read Magic (since otherwise the ability is absent from the world).

The equation then becomes: (cantrips) = (read magic) + ?

I'll go back to my earlier suggestion (also made by Kamikaze Midget), that a familiar is reasonable. Yes, it means changing a first level spell (find familiar) into a class ability as well, but that's actually less intrusive than the changes you have to make already (e.g. 1-3 above).

I stand by: Read magic and a magic kitty.

 

[keterys]

So I think "just pretend they don't exist!" or "Just limit them!" are probably not the most useful suggestions, because that's basically saying "make your character suck more, it'll be fine!"

How much those things contribute is probably open to some debate, but if we want to give spellcasters something that is equal to the most powerful cantrip, what's that look like?

Essentially, what you want to do is move up the lowest baseline of the class but not touch the upper end at all. Similar to if you looked at a fighter and said "He has to choose to be proficient in either bows or shields, but not both. Mind you he can still use crossbows and fight 2-handed no problems at all." or "he can't use chainmail anymore, but plate, splint, leather, etc are all still good". It's a limitation, it'll affect someone from time to time, but when you compare the median performance of the class it doesn't actually affect anything at all.

So, providing a feat is real bad, since that not only shifts that game element (feats) up too early for the design, it also can be quite powerful over time. And oh boy the weirdness that comes up if you take the 1st level of several caster classes to get several feats in a system that assumes you only have, say, 3 ever.

Providing read magic and a familiar sounds decent enough though.

 

[Daern]

Cantrip Idea

How about you just give Wizards 3 + Level Cantrips and double the number of slots?
So you learn a new cantrip each level (Dislike having to choose 3 at 1sst level and never know more)
That way you have more minor versatility with the trade off of limited use. Most limited at low level but rising to quickly (6 cantrips 12 slots at 3rd, all the cantrips and 18 slots at 6th)

 

[delericho]

I did, but that was back in AD&D. One of the first lessons I took away from Pathfinder is to not try and force a survival scenario when you have infinite Create Water and Prestidigitation (among others)...

By removing the at-will cantrips, that makes it easier to actually get back to doing a survival game, where previously it would not be feasible.

And that would be exactly why I said a no-cantrips module would need to cover the removal of these things.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

So I think "just pretend they don't exist!" or "Just limit them!" are probably not the most useful suggestions, because that's basically saying "make your character suck more, it'll be fine!"

That's assuming that casters without at will cantrips actually do suck, which is far from a universal opinion. There shouldn't be any particular hit to the caster from removing them - I doesn't look like they'll cause more damage than a weapon. And I kind of like the strong round/weak round playstyle, timing your strong hits for maximum effect, and I know quite a lot of people that have played casters like that and have no problem with them. And laser-gun fingers does not fit my idea of what D&D fantasy should look like, especially at low level.

Anywayz, I kind of like the idea of each at-will attack cantrip doing the caster 1 hp of damage. It limits casting a bit. It's more interesting than a simple limit - you can cast a cantrip every round for a while, but you have to consider if it's worth the cost. It doesn't have much effect at higher levels, where laser-gun fingers are a less inappropriate fit to D&D fantasy. It limits the craziness inherent in at-will cantrips out of combat: "yeah, I'm gonna burn this forest down 'cause I can keep up this flamethrower all day." And I like a possible fiction supporting this idea: "cantrips draw on your life force rather directly (hence damage) while spells are powered by energy gathered ahead of time"

 

[dd.stevenson]

As far as limiting the use of cantrips, can't we just say that casters gain the same number of cantrips as they do first level spells? Can't easily cut the durned things out entirely since they seem pretty baked into the game, from what we've seen.

I'm honestly not sure what people who dislike infinite cantrips would want caster to have in lieu of this ability. So as to not make this change a straight nerf of casters. Use of the 1E spells per day progression chart, perhaps? That would screw with the level by level balance--but of course that would be the point, to make the game more 1E-ish.