Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Imaro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS5tzGfOBGU MAGIC!

But seriously, do you imagine the player using this power just says. "I just stand there and I'm invisible, not even trying to hide."? If so, then I imagine your confusion. Personally if this power was used I'd either ask the player why he is invisible or just make up why the enemies dont see him.

Perhaps he is posing next to a statue? Or dropped to the ground just in time? It's all dependant on the situation.

Ok, but do you also see that if you say he's using some form of non-traditional magic... it irons out those weird situations?

 

[herrozerro]

Ok, but do you also see that if you say he's using some form of non-traditional magic... it irons out those weird situations?

If, a player wants to say he is using some kind of battle magic then sure. If not, then there are ways to explain mundane versions of the event.

 

[Imaro]

If, a player wants to say he is using some kind of battle magic then sure. If not, then there are ways to explain mundane versions of the event.

I still contend that the martial power source by default is a form of magic... what type? Non-traditional. A player can describe himself as "just that fast" but that's not really explaining why he is just that fast. Anyway, I don't think you are going to change my views and I don't think I am going to change yours, but I did enjoy the discussion. I'm going to bow out now and let this thread get back on course...

 

[Wicht]

I'm talking about the INT of the victim. It's easier to trick less clever than more clever people. Hence, for instance, why it's easier to trick children than adult's - children don't have as good an understanding or knowledge of what is going on around them as do adults.

Right. Which mechanically is represented by their lower Wisdom scores.

Again, Wisdom is the mental ability to notice that sort of thing. Wisdom is just as much a mental Ability as Intelligence. A character with a high Intelligence, but very low Wisdom might get bamboozled a lot (think absent minded professor) and a character with high Wisdom and low Intelligence is going to be less easily fooled, though they might not be as well educated or have as good a memory. Intelligence is the ability to recall stuff, not the ability which lets you best interact with the world around you (including socially).

For me, the problem would be that the game might encourage a boring episode of play using lower level spells (and so easier to deploy repeatedly) rather than the interesting episode of play that might arise from using the higher level spells.

But that is moving on from the original issue, as to whether or not it is risky to use SoD/SoS spells - which I still don't see to be the case.

Boring, I guess, is in the eye of the beholder.

Risk is also in the eye of the beholder. In most dungeon/adventuring situations charm has about a 50% chance of working, give or take, though the actual outcome of what you get with a charm is going to vary wildly when it does work. So it will work perfectly about 20-30 percent of the time, produce unexpected results about the same, and the rest of the time it fizzles. I find a lot of the wizards abilities to be that way. When they work, they go off like a charm (no pun intended); but about half the time the non-damage spells fizzle or don't work as planned. I have likened the Wizards before to the Home Run hitters in Baseball, wh tend to have more strike-outs so that their efforts are either all or nothing in results.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Requirement: wielding crossbow, light thrown weapon, or sling"

Nothing about how many, just what types of weapons it works with. as it is a close attack, it needs one piece of ammunition or weapon per attack roll.

Actually, having the power work with a crossbow or sling makes it much more problematic in the light of the RW.

While drawing and throwing daggers accurately in rapid fashion may be demonstrable, a (standard, non-repeating) crossbow's or sling's mechanics would prevent the firing of 6 rounds at 6 targets in 6 seconds.

For example (skip to 2:20):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs&sns=em

Now, this isn't the "worlds's fastest crossbowman" in all likelihood, but he managed to fire 6 bolts...in 51 seconds- @10x the time in a D&D round.

 

[Imaro]

Actually, having the power work with a crossbow or sling makes it much more problematic in the light of the RW.

While drawing and throwing daggers accurately in rapid fashion may be demonstrable, a (standard, non-repeating) crossbow's or sling's mechanics would prevent the firing of 6 rounds at 6 targets in 6 seconds.

For example (skip to 2:20):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs&sns=em

Now, this isn't the "worlds's fastest crossbowman" in all likelihood, but he managed to fire 6 bolts...in 51 seconds- @10x the time in a D&D round.

Apparently the ability of being naturally fast can somehow break the laws of physics... *shrug* again sounds like some type of magic to me but I'm sure there's some off the wall explanation for how it's accomplished mundanely.

 

[herrozerro]

Apparently the ability of being naturally fast can somehow break the laws of physics... *shrug* again sounds like some type of magic to me but I'm sure there's some off the wall explanation for how it's accomplished mundanely.

Sounds like an extraordinary ability. Not magic at all.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sounds like an extraordinary ability. Not magic at all.

When you consider that most of the crossbow sites are citing a RoF of 5-6 shots per minute as the maximum for a non-repeating, hand-span (one of the fastest reloading methods) crossbow, well, yeah...you are kind of getting into "magic" territory when you can perform the same task in 1/10th the time.

 

[herrozerro]

When you consider that most of the crossbow sites are citing a RoF of 5-6 shots per minute as the maximum for a non-repeating, hand-span (one of the fastest reloading methods) crossbow, well, yeah...you are kind of getting into "magic" territory when you can perform the same task in 1/10th the time.

if we were talking about 3rd edition or PF we'd just slap an (ex) on it an no one would be complaining.
[h=3]Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)[/h]Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Nonmagical? Check.
Requires Training? Check.
Breaks the laws of physics? Check.

Sounds like a non magical extraordinary ability.

 

[billd91]

if we were talking about 3rd edition or PF we'd just slap an (ex) on it an no one would be complaining.
[h=3]Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)[/h]Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Nonmagical? Check.
Requires Training? Check.
Breaks the laws of physics? Check.

Sounds like a non magical extraordinary ability.

Indeed that might be true. But, personally, I think this is one of those areas in which 4e broke down as a successor to previous editions - it failed to build on some useful foundations of its predecessors. Extraordinary abilities are a great way to describe capabilities that aren't magical yet may break the laws of our own reality in favor of something more literary, cinematic, or legendary. They are precisely the sort of "nice things" that non-magical classes should have as their more potent capabilities.

Instead, we got the martial power source which was not magical "in the traditional sense". I'm not convinced it was a good trade. Too much of the baby went out with the 3e -> 4e bathwater.