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Were the four roles correctly identified, or are there others?

Hi folks,

I was wondering whether people who've been playing 4E for a while now think that the four roles of leader, defender, striker and controller were correctly identified, or whether there might be more (or fewer).

I think that there is no one role taxonomy that will always work. What 4E did was took the classic Fighter/Magic User/Cleric/Thief, looked at what each of them bring to a party and generalised from there. Something that had been done by 2E before it. For a taxonomy of D&D classes it wasn't a bad place to start (and again that's why 2E had effectively the same taxonomy but only one power source in each role).

I think there are indeed other roles and ways of looking at things - dozens of them. But for producing a game of D&D the 4e system works. If producing an alternate taxonomy, I might separate the Trickster from the Striker (thieves and illusionists are definite tricksters and weak in combat), and separate the Blaster/Evoker from the Controller/Save or Suck merchant.

And many MMOs have a Crowd Control role. World of Warcraft doesn't because of the way bosses work - and if you have 25 people on a raid, you can have crowd control through simple numbers. City of Heroes did because that was 8 man teams.
 

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I am beginning to think that the Defender role doesn't truly exist in reality.

This is probably controversial because the knight with shield is a core iconic image. But if you look at a fight with multiple roles, the most logical thing for an enemy to do is ignore the defender and attack one of the other three roles.

To prevent this, games give the defender all sorts of "unnatural" abilities. Come And Get It, threat, taunts, etc. Things to force the enemy into taking a sub-optimal attack. These are abilities that often end up being very controversial.

Perhaps a triad of Striker, Leader, and Controller is more correct. Shield classes could be fit into Striker and Leader types.

If you look at MMOs, Defenders really only exist in Player vs Environment situations, where the computer-controlled enemies are programmed to attack the Defender first. In Player vs Player combat, the Defender role often disappears (unless there is something like flag carrying in a capture the flag game). Instead PvP collapses into Striker/Leader/Controller.

In my view, this implies that the Striker/Leader/Controller roles are more "real", and that Defender is an artificial role.
 

I think the 4e roles work better in theory than in action.

The problem partially was the fact they only linked to their COMBAT roles, and classic D&D party "roles" being a mix (Fighters to combat, Rogues to skills, Wizards to magic, Clerics to healing). Combat got split between Fighter (defender) and Rogue (Offense). Magic was split up so that buffing was solely the provo of Clerics/leaders, Wizards got area of effect and debuffing, both classes had to have single-target attack spells, and everything else got shuffled off to to Rituals. Skills likewise was no longer a category since all classes were equally good "skill users".

This forced nearly all four classes to have to play differently. Fighters stopped focusing on maximum damage (from specialization or feats) and worried about marking and aggro. Rogues stopped being skill monkeys and instead only focused on the assassin/ninja part. The cleric spell list became mostly rituals, so they ended up having to get all of these one-shot mini-buffs and heals. Likewise, wizards often could do anything, so pairing them down to just debuffs and mini-nukes really changed them.

Even moreso, trying to cram other classes into the four roles created some weird effects, like druids who couldn't heal (well) or artificers that were Cleric replacements (wha??) Eventually, classes broke the mold anyway (see: Barbarian) and the roles ended up mostly useless.

I am happy that roles in 5e are more descriptive again than prescriptive; classes have an organic element and trying to confine them to combat roles make them a less than the sum of their parts.
 

I think the 4e roles work better in theory than in action.

The problem partially was the fact they only linked to their COMBAT roles, and classic D&D party "roles" being a mix (Fighters to combat, Rogues to skills, Wizards to magic, Clerics to healing). Combat got split between Fighter (defender) and Rogue (Offense). Magic was split up so that buffing was solely the provo of Clerics/leaders, Wizards got area of effect and debuffing, both classes had to have single-target attack spells, and everything else got shuffled off to to Rituals. Skills likewise was no longer a category since all classes were equally good "skill users".

This forced nearly all four classes to have to play differently. Fighters stopped focusing on maximum damage (from specialization or feats) and worried about marking and aggro. Rogues stopped being skill monkeys and instead only focused on the assassin/ninja part. The cleric spell list became mostly rituals, so they ended up having to get all of these one-shot mini-buffs and heals. Likewise, wizards often could do anything, so pairing them down to just debuffs and mini-nukes really changed them.

Even moreso, trying to cram other classes into the four roles created some weird effects, like druids who couldn't heal (well) or artificers that were Cleric replacements (wha??) Eventually, classes broke the mold anyway (see: Barbarian) and the roles ended up mostly useless.

I am happy that roles in 5e are more descriptive again than prescriptive; classes have an organic element and trying to confine them to combat roles make them a less than the sum of their parts.

How many incorrect statements are in there?

Off the top of my head the ones that stick out like a sore thumb are "Skills likewise was no longer a category since all classes were equally good "skill users"." - strictly false. Rogues got six trained skills by default including Stealth and Thievery. Their primary stat (Dex) affects three out of seventeen skills. Fighters get three trained stats by default and a much narrower class skill list. Their primary stat (Str) affects one out of seventeen skills. To claim that all classes are equally good skill users is absolutely false.

"Magic was split up so that buffing was solely the provo of Clerics/leaders" - another incorrect statement. Even in the PHB1 Paladins and Wizards both buff people and neither class is a Leader (although Paladins are secondary Leaders).

"Wizards got area of effect and debuffing" - Clerics also have area of effect debuffs. And rogues have some pretty nasty debuffs. But yes, wizards are good at both.

"and everything else got shuffled off to to Rituals" - except the things that didn't. Like invisibility and flight which are both wizard utility spells. Some things, like Phantom Steed were sent towards Rituals. Not everything by any means.

And in the interests of fairness I am sticking strictly to PHB1 examples. Your entire claims as to how the roles were allocated are simply not true. In 4e the class roles were descriptive - with rogues being the skill monkeys of old (and putting 3.X rogues to shame as skill monkeys). The problem is that people assumed that the roles were prescriptive because they did not read carefully or understand the design.

Your statements about the 4e classes are slightly more accurate.

The druid is a half-truth. The 3.X druid was a monster who could shapechange, who could heal, who could buff, who could cast really effectively, and who had a pet and could summon more pets, turning into an aggressively hegmonizing bear swarm. There was enough there that 4e turned the druid into three separate classes because there was so much baggage attached to its role. The first to come out was the Shapeshifter. This much is true. It came out first because it was the part of the druid that did things that other classes simply could not match - far the most distinctive of its roles. The second was the Sentinel Druid in Essentials - a healer with a pet. The third was the caster and animal summoner that came out in Heroes of the Feywild.

"Fighters stopped focusing on maximum damage (from specialization or feats) and worried about marking and aggro." This again is a half-truth. Fighters are defenders because if the monsters take their eye off the fighters the fighter becomes the most damaging class in the game. (Shut up over there, Ranger. Everyone knows Twin Strike is broken). The best way for a fighter to defend is by being as powerful as possible.

"Likewise, wizards often could do anything, so pairing them down to just debuffs and mini-nukes really changed them. " This I will accept. But by the same token will you accept that the very concept of a class that can do anything is broken and something that simply should not happen because it makes all the other classes redundant. Complaining that 4e changed something that was very obviously broken is not a complaint I can understand. What should they have done? Left the problem there?
 

I am beginning to think that the Defender role doesn't truly exist in reality.

This is probably controversial because the knight with shield is a core iconic image. But if you look at a fight with multiple roles, the most logical thing for an enemy to do is ignore the defender and attack one of the other three roles.

To prevent this, games give the defender all sorts of "unnatural" abilities. Come And Get It, threat, taunts, etc. Things to force the enemy into taking a sub-optimal attack. These are abilities that often end up being very controversial.

Perhaps a triad of Striker, Leader, and Controller is more correct. Shield classes could be fit into Striker and Leader types.

If you look at MMOs, Defenders really only exist in Player vs Environment situations, where the computer-controlled enemies are programmed to attack the Defender first. In Player vs Player combat, the Defender role often disappears (unless there is something like flag carrying in a capture the flag game). Instead PvP collapses into Striker/Leader/Controller.

In my view, this implies that the Striker/Leader/Controller roles are more "real", and that Defender is an artificial role.

D&D combat is a very bad match for most real combat. On the battlefield you would be in close order and the defenders would be entire blocks of units with some sort of polearms. Can't go backwards, can't go round. Man to man, defenders are people who get up in your face so you don't feel you can break away because you are under that much pressure. And that's actually how 4e Fighters work. Getting right into the enemy's face and if they try to break away or attack someone else the fighter gets a free swing. No taunts, and CAGI is very much not necessary. Attacking someone other than the fighter means that you are taking your eye off the killer in front of you and they are going to shank you between the ribs or chop your arm off.

But yes, in reality the 4e Fighter/Defender is a rarer role. It's the ability to single someone out in combat, say "You're mine" and be able to enforce that. Ignoring the fighter is not logical because he is going to gut you if you try. He's that good.

MMO taunts are due to the AI not being that good. It's simply the easiest way to code. And in PVP players would absolutely hate to be taunted. Unlike 4e marking/punishment, taunt is implemented through mind control so you'd need an entire set of new subsystems.
 

<snip>

But yes, in reality the 4e Fighter/Defender is a rarer role. It's the ability to single someone out in combat, say "You're mine" and be able to enforce that. Ignoring the fighter is not logical because he is going to gut you if you try. He's that good.

<snip>.

As opposed to the Striker that going to gut you whether or not you pay attention to him because he's that good? It's not logical to ignore him either since 1) he looks like a glass cannon compared to the Defender and 2) he is causing more hurt than the Defender. Which one should I concentrate on again?
 

As opposed to the Striker that going to gut you whether or not you pay attention to him because he's that good? It's not logical to ignore him either since 1) he looks like a glass cannon compared to the Defender and 2) he is causing more hurt than the Defender. Which one should I concentrate on again?

The poison is in both glasses. Which is the point. If you take your eyes off a fighter they tend to cause more hurt than a striker*. If you don't then the glass cannon gets away with it. Which is the right one to attack? Tough choice.

* One reason the PHB Ranger is a problematic class. It still does more damage than a Defender thanks to Twin Strike being broken and a plethora of interrupt attacks.
 

The poison is in both glasses. Which is the point. If you take your eyes off a fighter they tend to cause more hurt than a striker*. If you don't then the glass cannon gets away with it. Which is the right one to attack? Tough choice.

* One reason the PHB Ranger is a problematic class. It still does more damage than a Defender thanks to Twin Strike being broken and a plethora of interrupt attacks.

The Striker. If you drop him there's no more choice to make and you are more likely to drop him than the steel wall.

One thing I always thought is two opposing Defenders should cancel each other out -- Defender A marks someone but Defender B marks Defender A. Now the two in-your-face fighters are locked together incapable of taking their attention away from each other.
 

The Striker. If you drop him there's no more choice to make and you are more likely to drop him than the steel wall.

But you don't take a free extra attack if you try to drop the Striker. You'll just be dropped all the faster.

At a personal level if the Defender has targetted you, the safe option is always to fight the defender and hope your mates take down the striker because the defender can't be everywhere.

One thing I always thought is two opposing Defenders should cancel each other out -- Defender A marks someone but Defender B marks Defender A. Now the two in-your-face fighters are locked together incapable of taking their attention away from each other.

It's the same iocane style choice as the first mark. The first can focus on the first or they can face the consequences.
 

But you don't take a free extra attack if you try to drop the Striker. You'll just be dropped all the faster.

At a personal level if the Defender has targetted you, the safe option is always to fight the defender and hope your mates take down the striker because the defender can't be everywhere.



It's the same iocane style choice as the first mark. The first can focus on the first or they can face the consequences.

Um, no? Nothing in a Defender's power prevents a Mark-like effect on a different target so far as I can tell.

So Defender A can continue to get in someone else's face via a Mark while Defender B has him Marked. So much for "the ability to single someone out in combat, say "You're mine" and be able to enforce that".
 

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