Pun Pun--- does it work?

[Umbran]

(Parallel cases in statutory interpretation would be the reading in of jurisdictional limitations, or other sorts of limitations on generality, that weren't expressly stated but were clearly intended as part of the content of what was expressly stated.)

If this sort of sentence is actually required to understand how to pretend to be elves, the game needs to be taken out and shot.

I'm going to guess, though, that this sentence isn't required. Which is to say that you're overdoing it. While we sometimes try to dissect the literal logical meaning of rules text, we ought to stop and remember that the authors are not usually lawyers. They intend the game to be used by average Joes and Janes. Using modern law examples to understand the game is probably inappropriate - the usual player has never been involved in "reading of jurisdictional limitations", so that is probably not the way to go.

 

[TwoSix]

If this sort of sentence is actually required to understand how to pretend to be elves, the game needs to be taken out and shot.

I'm going to guess, though, that this sentence isn't required. Which is to say that you're overdoing it. While we sometimes try to dissect the literal logical meaning of rules text, we ought to stop and remember that the authors are not usually lawyers. They intend the game to be used by average Joes and Janes. Using modern law examples to understand the game is probably inappropriate - the usual player has never been involved in "reading of jurisdictional limitations", so that is probably not the way to go.

To be fair, Pun Pun has virtually nothing to do with actually playing D&D, and much more to do with practicing theoretical optimization. A lot of the fun for that community comes from the lawyerly reading of RAW to determine if builds like Pun Pun are possible.

CharOp is really its own subcommunity with only a tangential connection to the game as a whole.

 

[Umbran]

To be fair, Pun Pun has virtually nothing to do with actually playing D&D, and much more to do with practicing theoretical optimization. A lot of the fun for that community comes from the lawyerly reading of RAW to determine if builds like Pun Pun are possible.

CharOp is really its own subcommunity with only a tangential connection to the game as a whole.

Yes. And EN World has a section for just that. Since this isn't in that section, practical comments seem fair game.

Plus - and here's the sticking point - Pemberton is talking about intent. He's talking about the author's intent at the same time he's saying we can look at legal jurisdictional limitations as an example of the type of thing the author would have meant. Except that I am pretty sure the author doesn't have a law degree, and wasn't writing for lawyers.

There is a point where we can become a tad too highfalutin for our own good, and I'm pointing that out. We are talking about games for real people. Logic can and should be applied, but high theory must be linked solidly back to practicalities if the discussion's to remain relevant.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes. And EN World has a section for just that. Since this isn't in that section, practical comments seem fair game.

Plus - and here's the sticking point - Pemberton is talking about intent. He's talking about the author's intent at the same time he's saying we can look at legal jurisdictional limitations as an example of the type of thing the author would have meant. Except that I am pretty sure the author doesn't have a law degree, and wasn't writing for lawyers.

There is a point where we can become a tad too highfalutin for our own good, and I'm pointing that out. We are talking about games for real people. Logic can and should be applied, but high theory must be linked solidly back to practicalities if the discussion's to remain relevant.

Pun Pun left the realm of practically relevant several infinite loops ago.

 

[pemerton]

While we sometimes try to dissect the literal logical meaning of rules text, we ought to stop and remember that the authors are not usually lawyers. They intend the game to be used by average Joes and Janes. Using modern law examples to understand the game is probably inappropriate

I'm not the person who suggested using interpretive methodolgies to block Pun Pun - as I said in the post that you quoted from "I just don't think we need to take the detour through linguistic/interpretive methodology to get there."

But if people are going to use such methodologies - and talk, for interest, about contrasts between RAW and RAI - then I think that it's reasonable to bring to bear a decent understanding of those methodologies. (Thereby, among other things, casting doubt on the whole RAW/RAI distinction.)

Pemberton is talking about intent. He's talking about the author's intent at the same time he's saying we can look at legal jurisdictional limitations as an example of the type of thing the author would have meant.

I don't know who this Pemberton character is, and what he might have been doing.

But I wasn't doing what you describe in the quoted section. I wasn't talking about the rule's author's intent to mimic a drafting technique. I was talking about the rule's author probably doing the same thing as a statutory drafter sometimes does - namely, not expressly stating a limitation that nevertheless should be taken to be intended. In this particular case, the limitation is the one that [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] suggested - namely, that Manipulate Form doesn't confer the power to confer Manipulate Form itself.

If you think that, in fact, the rules author did intend Manipulate Form to allow conferral of Manipulate Form, that's fine. What are your reasons for thinking that?

 

[MEFASOLA]

only seen 1 explanation of Manipulate FOrm

In the book, and at the WOTC site, it says only grants extraordinary ability. So great, increase a scaled one's ability score. Then that one increases Yours; I still don't see ANYTHING saying it grants anything BUT an extraordinary ability.

tho I did see that You can just cast polymorph, then take assume supernatural ability feat (Savage Species) to gain Manipulate Form. still dont see where the bonus granting from it is written tho, I'm with You on that one *shrug*

 

[MEFASOLA]

You can google serpent kingdoms or whatever it's called and look at the whole book on pdf. It, and the wotc description, explicity do not state that MF grants anything but extraordinary abilities. So I don't know where these people keep saying MF can do that extra stuff *shrug*

oh and no where have I seen that Sarrukh are immune to it. Thing thats gettin Me is that I dont see where people keep seeing anything but the black and white sources I've looked at.

 

[delericho]

It, and the wotc description, explicity do not state that MF grants anything but extraordinary abilities.

See page 81.