D&D 5E Saving Throws design choice

[Sadrik]

So it looks like STR, INT, and CHA saves went away in the spells. That means that the classes which have STR, INT, or CHA save Proficiency is just an extraneous class feature. It looks like we are back to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.

There are a couple of weird applications though. Disbelieve is an Investigation (INT) check. There is a variety in how some similar effects are handled. Not unlike previous editions.

My 2 personal yuks:
HP Thresholds are still in, I would remove.
Spell attack concept, I would remove and make saves (standardizes similar effects handled in different ways).

Specific spell comments:
Teleport % roll could have been an INT check
Unsure about the auto-dispel of spells from Dispel Magic and Globe of Invulnerability - a very minor point
Web should be Athletics (STR) when restrained.
Maze could be Investigation (INT)?
Greater Restoration should have been a leveled up version of restoration
Greater Invisibility should have been a leveled up version of invisibility

List of all spells and their checks:
Aid – No save or check
Anti-Magic Field – No save or check
Arcane Eye – No save or check, though I would imagine that there would be a perception (WIS) or passive perception interaction to see if the eye was detected. No advice offered.
Arcane Lock increases the DC to break the door or pick the door lock by 10
Astral Projection – No save or check
Augury – No save or check
Beacon of Hope – No save or check
Blade Barrier – Save (DEX) for ½
Bless – No save or check
Blur – No save or check
Burning Hands – Save (DEX) for ½
Chain Lightning – Save (DEX) for ½
Charm Person – Save (WIS) to Negate
Command – Save (WIS) to Negate
Commune – No save or check
Comprehend Languages – No save or check
Cone of Cold – Save (CON) for ½
Cure Wounds – No save or check
Dancing Lights – No save or check
Darkness – No save or check
Death Ward – No save or check
Delayed Blast Fireball – Save (DEX) for ½
Detect Magic – No save or check
Dimension Door – No save or check
Disintegrate – Save (DEX) to Negate
Dispel Magic – d20+stat vs 10+spell level, would have liked to see this reversed so the DM does not give away how many spell effects are up on the target
Divination – No save or check
Dominate Monster – Save (WIS) to Negate
Dominate Person – Save (WIS) to Negate
Dream – Save (WIS) to Negate Partially
Earthquake – Save (CON) to lose concentration on spells, Save (DEX) to Negate being knocked prone, Save (DEX) to not fall in a fissure, Save (DEX) for ½ if a structure falls on you, Athletics (STR) to dig out of rubble.
Etherealness – No save or check
Find the Path – No save or check
Faerie Fire – Save (DEX) to Negate
Finger of Death – Save (CON) for ½
Fireball – Save (DEX) for ½
Fire Bolt – Spell Attack
Fire Storm – Save (DEX) for ½
Flame Strike – Save (DEX) for ½
Flaming Sphere – Save (DEX) for ½
Fly – No save or check, though I would imagine Athletics (STR) depending on environmental factors such as wind
Foresight – No save or check
Freedom of Movement – No save or check
Gate – No save or check
Globe of Invulnerability – No save or check
Greater Invisibility – No save or check, although it does not say, you still need to make Stealth (DEX) checks, found this through various sections of the book
Greater Restoration – No save or check
Guardian of Faith – Save (DEX) for ½
Guidance – No save or check
Guiding Bolt – Spell Attack
Harm – Save (CON) for ½
Haste – No save or check
Heal – No save or check
Healing Word – No save or check
Hero's Feast – No save or check
Hold Person – Save (WIS) to Negate
Holy Aura – Save (CON) to Negate
Ice Storm – Save (DEX) for ½
Identify – No save or check
Imprisonment – Save (WIS) to Negate
Inflict Wounds – Spell Attack
Invisibility – No save or check, although it does not say, you still need to make Stealth (DEX) checks, found this through various sections of the book
Knock – No save or check
Lesser Restoration – No save or check
Levitate – Save (CON) to Negate
Light – Save (DEX) to Negate
Lightning Bolt – Save (DEX) for ½
Locate Creature – No save or check
Mage Armor – No save or check
Mage Hand – No save or check
Magic Missile – No save or check
Magic Weapon – No save or check
Major Image – Investigation (INT) check to negate illusion
Mass Cure Wounds – No save or check
Mass Heal – No save or check
Mass Healing Word – No save or check
Mass Suggestion – Save (WIS) to Negate
Maze – INT check to negate (No skill and no INT save helps)
Meteor Swarm – Save (DEX) for ½
Minor Illusion – Investigation (INT) check to negate illusion
Misty Step – No save or check
Mordenkainen's Sword – Spell Attack
Otto's Irresistible Dance – Save (WIS) to Negate
Passwall – No save or check
Power Word Kill – HP Threshold, no save or check
Power Word Stun – HP Threshold and Save (CON) to Negate
Prayer of Healing – No save or check
Prestidigitation – No save or check, although if they were going to target someone with it I would grant a save...
Protection from Energy – No save or check
Raise Dead – No save or check
Ray of Frost – Spell Attack
Regenerate – No save or check
Remove Curse – No save or check
Resistance – No save or check
Resurrection – No save or check
Revivify – No save or check
Sacred Flame – Save (DEX) to Negate
Sanctuary – Save (WIS) to Negate
Shield – No save or check
Shield of Faith – No save or check
Shocking Grasp – Spell Attack
Silence – No save or check
Silent Image – Investigation (INT) check to negate illusion
Sleep – HP Threshold, no save or check
Spare the Dying – No save or check
Speak with Dead – No save or check
Spider Climb – No save or check
Spirit Guardian – Save (WIS) for ½
Spiritual Weapon – Spell Attack
Stoneskin – No save or check
Suggestion – Save (WIS) to Negate
Sunburst – Save (CON) for ½
Teleport – Special % roll instead of a skill check or save
Thaumaturgy – No save or check, although if they were going to target someone with it I would grant a save...
Thunderwave – Save (CON) for ½
Timestop – No save or check
True Resurrection – No save or check
True Seeing – No save or check
Wall of Stone – Save (DEX) to Negate
Warding Bond – No save or check
Web – Save (DEX) to Negate restrained, STR check to negate restrained (No skill and no STR save helps)

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I do find the six saves to be an odd design choice, since it seems like too many. Heck, B/X and 1E/2e only needed five saves! It's simple in concept to have attribute saves, but not when you need six of them.

Fortitude, Reflex, and Will strike me as much simpler, especially when Fort = better of STR or CON, Ref = better of DEX or INT, and Will = better of WIS or CHA (which is how I applied the saves for Mages & Monsters). That gives the benefit of an attribute save with the simplicity of a three-save basis.

 

[fba827]

Fortitude, Reflex, and Will strike me as much simpler, especially when Fort = better of STR or CON, Ref = better of DEX or INT, and Will = better of WIS or CHA.

Sounds like an easy to implement house rule if it becomes an issue in play for those that like house rules

 

[Sadrik]

I do find the six saves to be an odd design choice, since it seems like too many. Heck, B/X and 1E/2e only needed five saves! It's simple in concept to have attribute saves, but not when you need six of them.

Fortitude, Reflex, and Will strike me as much simpler, especially when Fort = better of STR or CON, Ref = better of DEX or INT, and Will = better of WIS or CHA (which is how I applied the saves for Mages & Monsters). That gives the benefit of an attribute save with the simplicity of a three-save basis.

If you want to add this to make a 4e feel. I suppose it works. Right now it is a 3e feel of CON, DEX, and WIS. The 4e style shores up weak stats but it also creates the potential of a dump stat in each pair. This was a major complaint with how saves were set up in 4e.

I am ok with the resurgence of the 3 saves, ala, 3e. Something to consider though is that each stat should be balanced based on the 3 saves now though. Everything is not equal. I would have to do more analysis to determine if WIS feels balanced compared to CHA all things considered.

 

[Ainamacar]

While it would have been nice if saves could be spread evenly around, it looks to me that the designers have mostly given up on that. I think we might simply see that all classes give save proficiencies in pairs: a "primary" one and a "secondary" one, something which is true so far for the basic classes. While the individual saves might not have equal value, proficiencies given out in these pairs will be of approximately equal value for characters. The ability scores themselves would not be equally valuable with respect to saves, so there would be greater ability to dump some than others. That said, the mere fact that a secondary save exists and could be used occasionally makes the incentives quite a bit different than the traditional dump stat that can be dumped with absolutely no ill effect. Dumping really isn't an issue with the standard array or point buy anyway since the minimum is 8.

 

[sidonunspa]

Well,

Keep in mind we have not seen the PHB or optional future optional systems such as psionics.

 

[the Jester]

Well,

Keep in mind we have not seen the PHB or optional future optional systems such as psionics.

Or most of the monsters.

I'd bet $20 that there will be some Str, Int and Cha saves by the time all three books are out.

 

[Sadrik]

Well,

Keep in mind we have not seen the PHB or optional future optional systems such as psionics.

Or most of the monsters.

I'd bet $20 that there will be some Str, Int and Cha saves by the time all three books are out.

If they wedge one type of magic into one little used save or have only a few outlier saves I will not be pleased. These will then be targets for players and DMs to grab to CharOp and Op the monsters vs the PCs. As it stands the basic game has three saves. I may leave it there for playing the game. Depends on when I get the books and if the additional implementations of systems and rules is coherently compatible with the basic rules.

 

[Grazzt]

Or most of the monsters.

I'd bet $20 that there will be some Str, Int and Cha saves by the time all three books are out.

Agreed. They wouldn't turn ability checks (essentially) into saves and then not use them.

 

[Mercule]

I'm ok with condensing it. Six really felt lime too many and the "save for every stat" idea was one of which I was dubious. Codifying the potential for the others is fine, and probably wise; I'm glad to see them as just potential, though. The one exception is that I was actually disappointed that illusions use investigation instead of intelligence save. Use int save would have been a nice throwback to 1E immunities for exceptional intelligence. That's easy enough to test out and maybe house-rule (or offer as a "module" in the DMG, for all we know).