D&D 5E How to slow the 5E treadmill?

[Umbran]

With Hasbro splitting M:tG and D&D so that each has their own financial targets for each year

Citation?

 

[Warbringer]

Citation?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315975-WotC-DDI-4E-and-Hasbro-Some-History

 

[Alzrius]

Citation?

I should have said "having split," since "splitting" sounds like future-tense, and I was referring to something Hasbro did several years back.

That said, my source for this is an article from Ryan Dancey back in 2012.

At the point of the original Hasbro/Wizards merger a fateful decision was made that laid the groundwork for what happened once Greg took over. Instead of focusing Hasbro on the idea that Wizards of the Coast was a single brand, each of the lines of business in Wizards got broken out and reported to Hasbro as a separate entity. This was driven in large part by the fact that the acquisition agreement specified a substantial post-acquisition purchase price adjustment for Wizards' shareholders on the basis of the sales of non-Magic CCGs (i.e. Pokemon).

This came back to haunt Wizards when Hasbro's new Core/Non-Core strategy came into focus. Instead of being able to say "We're a $100+ million brand, keep funding us as we desire", each of the business units inside Wizards had to make that case separately. So the first thing that happened was the contraction you saw when Wizards dropped new game development and became the "D&D and Magic" company. Magic has no problem hitting the "Core" brand bar, but D&D does. It's really a $25-30 million business, especially since Wizards isn't given credit for the licensing revenue of the D&D computer games.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Warbringer.

 

[Jester David]

Not having monthly books will help. That really killed 3e and 4e. Fewer large books that are kore comprehensive is much more appealing. 3-4 releases each year is more than enough.
Although they can do some supplements in the e-magazines for those who do want monthly content.

Bloat is half related to the amount of content and half making content hard to find. When you're uncertain what books to look in for options books cease being usable. Each accessory needs a strong them so you know to look there for related content and generic options should be limited.

Accessories should be roughly self-contained but comprehensive, so you don't need many accessories for that option. New options like classes should be added rarely as providing later support is hard and retroactive support is tricky. For example, a Psionic book is a must and should be all the book you need for psionics with related races, subclasses, monsters, and feats. Because people shouldn't gave to think to look for psionic options in random books.

I thinks themed releases might be cool. Since they seem to be focused on the Forgotten Realms they could explore other regions and have related content.
They could do a Kara-Tur sourcebook and pair that with a new Oriental Adventures detailing Asian classes and races and options. And have a couple adventures set in that region or with an East-meets-West feel. And maybe a monster book with related beasties. Repeat for the Uneerdark, Al Qadim, Pirates of the Moonsea, SpellJammer and the like.

 

[Kai Lord]

What do you guys think about WOTC re-releasing the core rulebooks with updated covers in 2-4 years like they did back in the day with AD&D?

I think that would be a good way to get a cheap boost in core rulebook sales and could appeal to new gamers and add a little bit of a collectability factor to the original (and new) covers. They could even do "retro" covers, reprinting the exact art above if they wanted, or at least publishing art in that style (similar to what is currently being done with Gygax Magazine.)

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

What do you guys think about WOTC re-releasing the core rulebooks with updated covers in 2-4 years like they did back in the day with AD&D?

I think that would be a good way to get a cheap boost in core rulebook sales and could appeal to new gamers and add a little bit of a collectability factor to the original (and new) covers. They could even do "retro" covers, reprinting the exact art above if they wanted, or at least publishing art in that style (similar to what is currently being done with Gygax Magazine.)

I could certainly get behind that.

The truth is, I don't have a problem with incremental revisions. 3.5 was a good idea, in concept. It was simply too early. And I suspect that we don't need a reprint of the MM and DMG all the time. But an update to the PHB every five years or so? That sounds like a fine idea.

 

[Jester David]

What do you guys think about WOTC re-releasing the core rulebooks with updated covers in 2-4 years like they did back in the day with AD&D?

I think that would be a good way to get a cheap boost in core rulebook sales and could appeal to new gamers and add a little bit of a collectability factor to the original (and new) covers. They could even do "retro" covers, reprinting the exact art above if they wanted, or at least publishing art in that style (similar to what is currently being done with Gygax Magazine.)

They had planned to do that for 3e but with staff turnover "new covers and errata" became 3.5e. So I'm a little wary. I don't think we need a repeat of 3.5e or Essentials.

It made sense for 1e as they suddenly had the budget for better art. And you don't want to confuse a new player with two slightly different versions of the same book. And there might be the temptation to make changes and tweaks, which conflicts with the idea of a cheaply produced reprint (i.e. One with little cost for WotC to produce).

No one is going to buy a second core rulebook just because it has a different cover. So there s no real boost in sales. It's easier to just keep printing regular copies of the rulebook and working to attract new players.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Books are not the future.

The publishing industry as a whole is in the midst of a sea change brought on by cheap, widely available digital content and increased competition from, well, everything. This is a problem for WotC and D&D too.

People think 4e's divisiveness killed it, but I tend to think that any edition that launched in 2008 would have had problems with sales. Why buy books when you can get it all for free online?

To some degree WotC gave away the farm with DDI, since once you had the character builder you didn't need books and once you had the compendium you didn't need monsters. But if DDI had not existed people would have gotten that content elsewhere and WotC would have gotten NO money instead of their $10/month.

WotC has a real conundrum to solve. Game rules are incredibly easy to disseminate online. "Flavor" is nice to have, but you can play without it and most people won't pay for it. What's left?

Art still looks better in a nicely bound hardcover, and some people are willing to shell out for good stuff. This suggests there might be a market for premium, 'deluxe' editions. But that won't support the entire game.

Paizo has definitely hit on something with adventure subscriptions. If you can't get $50 a book from people you can at least get a few bucks from them every month. The fact that WotC has already improved the quality of their adventure offerings shows that they are thinking about this.

Live events are still a good idea, because an 'experience' is something you can't put on BitTorrent. Of course you have to figure out how to make money off of them. There was a movement towards the end of 4e to sell collectible cards for use with organized play. It didn't quite succeed but I would expect them to try something like this again.

A lot of indie games and publishers are really putting Kickstarter to work for them. If people want a book, get them to pay for it up front. Throw in goodies like "Your character appears in the book!" for backers who have serious cash to spend. Maybe even a big, established player like WotC can get in on this.

Will any of this really work? Are there other, even more out-there ideas that might work instead? I have no idea. But I guarantee you, if WotC doesn't solve these problems, 5e will be even shorter-lived than 4e was.

 

[Rygar]

@OP

Technically, 3rd edition has lasted 14 years and currently leads the market. Pathfinder is to 3.5 what 3.5 was to 3.0, it's the same game with a different name on the book.

Books are not the future.

The publishing industry as a whole is in the midst of a sea change brought on by cheap, widely available digital content and increased competition from, well, everything. This is a problem for WotC and D&D too.

People think 4e's divisiveness killed it, but I tend to think that any edition that launched in 2008 would have had problems with sales. Why buy books when you can get it all for free online?

To some degree WotC gave away the farm with DDI, since once you had the character builder you didn't need books and once you had the compendium you didn't need monsters. But if DDI had not existed people would have gotten that content elsewhere and WotC would have gotten NO money instead of their $10/month.

WotC has a real conundrum to solve. Game rules are incredibly easy to disseminate online. "Flavor" is nice to have, but you can play without it and most people won't pay for it. What's left?

Art still looks better in a nicely bound hardcover, and some people are willing to shell out for good stuff. This suggests there might be a market for premium, 'deluxe' editions. But that won't support the entire game.

Paizo has definitely hit on something with adventure subscriptions. If you can't get $50 a book from people you can at least get a few bucks from them every month. The fact that WotC has already improved the quality of their adventure offerings shows that they are thinking about this.

Live events are still a good idea, because an 'experience' is something you can't put on BitTorrent. Of course you have to figure out how to make money off of them. There was a movement towards the end of 4e to sell collectible cards for use with organized play. It didn't quite succeed but I would expect them to try something like this again.

A lot of indie games and publishers are really putting Kickstarter to work for them. If people want a book, get them to pay for it up front. Throw in goodies like "Your character appears in the book!" for backers who have serious cash to spend. Maybe even a big, established player like WotC can get in on this.

Will any of this really work? Are there other, even more out-there ideas that might work instead? I have no idea. But I guarantee you, if WotC doesn't solve these problems, 5e will be even shorter-lived than 4e was.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on a number of points.

First, the publishing industry isn't in a sea of change from digital content. In fact, digital content is proving to be a niche product. Pretty much every magazine that went digital instead of print has died off, especially in the gaming sector. E-books plateaued in 2013 and hardcovers showed growth. While there is certainly a niche that loves the product, it is far from ubiquitous, and currently isn't showing any signs of becoming ubiquitous.

Second, your piracy arguement is the same one that video game publishers, the RIAA, and the MPAA had been using. What actually has happened is that people still pay for product in significant numbers. Again in fact, the PC industry is doing so well in revenue it is making more than all three consoles platforms combined. IIRC CD Project Red announced that their sales increased after they removed DRM from one of their games (Witcher 2 IIRC). Piracy is negligible.

The problems you're listing don't exist, 4th edition's issues were the result of the reception of 4th edition, not piracy, not DDI. No other industry has an issue at present, so I fail to see why this is an insurmountable problem when the PC Industry has eclipsed all of the consoles combined, the music industry is making great revenue via Itunes, and Hollywood is seeing numerous movies making so much money in the theaters that they're breaking record after record, all despite piracy.

The issues WOTC needs to solve right now is how they're going to reclaim all of the people they lost to OSR and Pathfinder.

 

[Kai Lord]

It made sense for 1e as they suddenly had the budget for better art.

I've always been under the impression that AD&D updated its covers in 1983 to get away from the "devil" images on the covers of the PHB and DMG.