Spelljammer Converting Spelljammer creatures

[Cleon]

Cool. I'm totally game with that.

Since that's two out of three I'll add what we have so far to the Gammaroid Working Draft.

It's still missing a damage.

Any preference - aside from "lots".

Oh, and I'd like to change the "knocked about" DC from the original's 15. I don't want to use the standard Str-based DC, since a DC of 92 would meanall non-epic passengers and crew would be automatically hurled into the void.

Maybe make it 18 or 20, so ordinary folk who are on deck still have a slight chance?

 

[freyar]

DC 20 for being knocked around, I think.

This is all fine, but I am not sure about the "foundering" bit. Do spelljamming ships "founder" in space?

How about 12d6 damage to go with the fire damage?

EDIT: been travelling this week, hence the lack of posts...

 

[Arnwyn]

Spelljamming ships indeed don't "founder" in space (a holed hull really doesn't do anything except make for expensive repairs), but gammaroids conceivably can be found planetside/in atmosphere, and could attack sailing ships. (Yeah, I know - very rare, and missing the point of a gammaroid, but it could happen...)

I don't know what the 'accepted practice' is for such a thing when updated monsters to 3.x conventions... if we want to make it specifically about Spelljammer/flying ships, then the reference to "founder" is indeed unnecessary.

My personal use of it is for Spelljammer only, but that's just me being selfish.

Also - I like 12d6, but I'm fine with anything 'around' that mark. That's an average of 42 before fire damage, which is a nice ding. Wood (most ships, spelljammer or otherwise) only has a hardness of 5... Admittedly, 12d6 isn't very impressive to high-level characters who would be fighting this thing. But ramming characters would be dumb for it to do anyways... it seemed pretty clear that the point of ramming was for ships. Characters get the bite/claw/claw routine.

So yeah... 12d6?

 

[Cleon]

Spelljamming ships indeed don't "founder" in space (a holed hull really doesn't do anything except make for expensive repairs), but gammaroids conceivably can be found planetside/in atmosphere, and could attack sailing ships. (Yeah, I know - very rare, and missing the point of a gammaroid, but it could happen...)

Yes, but a gammaroid couldn't attack sailing ships with its Ramming attack, since the description says both it and the target have to be airborne.

Also - I like 12d6, but I'm fine with anything 'around' that mark. That's an average of 42 before fire damage, which is a nice ding. Wood (most ships, spelljammer or otherwise) only has a hardness of 5... Admittedly, 12d6 isn't very impressive to high-level characters who would be fighting this thing. But ramming characters would be dumb for it to do anyways... it seemed pretty clear that the point of ramming was for ships. Characters get the bite/claw/claw routine.

So yeah... 12d6?

12d6 seems a bit weak.

Its bite/claw/claw of 16d6+32/3d8+16/3d8+16 would average 147 damage assuming all of its attacks hits - which seems likely considering it has a +125/+120 attack! - and the 84 point average damage of 12d6 + 12d6 fire is a little over half that, being about 57% of its full attack damage.

The ratio'd be even worse if the Gammaroid was Power Attacking or the target has fire resistance running.

However, I'd think the gammaroid would add a Strength modifier to the damage in a similar manner to a Trample attack, either Str×1½ or Str×2. The former would give it 12d6+48 plus 12d6 fire (average total 132), or about 90% its full attack. The latter would give it 12d6+64 plus 12d6 fire (average total 148), which is almost the same as its 147 point full attack average.

Speaking of trample, I fancy using bigger dice for the impact damage much like most trample attacks do.

Say, 6d12 instead of 12d6, for 6d12+48 or 6d12+64 damage for the impact plus 12d6 fire, which'd produce an average damage three points less (129 points or 145 points).

Alternatively, I'd also consider a lower ×1 or ×1½ Str bonus multiplier and a few more d12s, e.g. 8d12+48 plus 12d6 fire (average 142).

 

[freyar]

Ehh, these are ridiculously epic. How about we do something like 8d12+(2xStr) for ramming damage?

 

[Cleon]

Ehh, these are ridiculously epic.

It's hard to design a 100 HD thousand-foot-long monster in 3rd edition and not have it come out ridiculously powerful in at least some aspects.

How about we do something like 8d12+(2xStr) for ramming damage?

Erm, 8d12+(2xStr) is more than any of my proposals, of which my preferences are 8d12+(1½×Str) or 6d12+(2×Str).

 

[Arnwyn]

Hrm. All of that is too much for my taste, but that's just me, and I'm not great at determining what's appropriate for monsters of this caliber.

However, I can settle for 129 average damage for a ram (before fire)...

(But then, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to these uber-creatures! I'm definitely deferring to those with experience on this one.)

 

[Cleon]

Hrm. All of that is too much for my taste, but that's just me, and I'm not great at determining what's appropriate for monsters of this caliber.

However, I can settle for 129 average damage for a ram (before fire)...

(But then, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to these uber-creatures! I'm definitely deferring to those with experience on this one.)

The listed averages in post #904 already include the 42 points average fire damage.

That 129 average damage to which you referred is 87 points from the Ramming's impact (6d12+48) plus 42 points from the flame sheath (12d6 fire).

(But then, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to these uber-creatures! I'm definitely deferring to those with experience on this one.)

Frankly, at this number of Hit Dice the 3E monster rules break down.

Plus, it's not a particularly viable epic opponent due to it having so few special defenses. It may be formidable against mundane damage, but all you need do is attack it with some Dex- or mental ability score damaging spells or weapons and it'll go down in a few hits.

 

[freyar]

Yeah, I was aware I was proposing a significant increase in damage. But go back and notice how big your estimates of kinetic energy are. You mentioned that its equivalent to falling 786 ft (with acceleration) in standard gravity. By RAW, that's 20d6 damage (by reaching the damage cap). I don't think 8d12+(2xStr) seems so ridiculous. But it doesn't matter too much to me.

Not sure anyone has a lot of experience dealing with critters like this.

How about we give it some epic feats to bolster those defenses a bit?

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, I was aware I was proposing a significant increase in damage. But go back and notice how big your estimates of kinetic energy are. You mentioned that its equivalent to falling 786 ft (with acceleration) in standard gravity. By RAW, that's 20d6 damage (by reaching the damage cap). I don't think 8d12+(2xStr) seems so ridiculous. But it doesn't matter too much to me.

Not sure anyone has a lot of experience dealing with critters like this.

Oh, I misconstrued the "ridiculously epic" in your previous post as being a criticism implying it was too high.

I have no objection to increasing the damage. My preferences lean slightly towards giving it more or larger dice rather than the higher Strength multiplier.

e.g. instead of 8d12+64, the impact damage could be 20d6+48 or 15d8+48 or 6d20+48 or 12d12+32, all of which have roughly the same average damage.

Of those, I like the symmetry of the 12d12 and the fact that 20d6 matches the "falling damage" you mentioned.

That said, I'd be find with 8d12+64 too.

Whichever you and Arnwyn prefer.

How about we give it some epic feats to bolster those defenses a bit?

Oh I'm sure it'll have plenty of Epic feats. It's not the Gammaroid's saves that are the problem, but it's inability to defend itself from ability damage attacks that don't allow saves.

For example, an Allip would easily be able to immobilize it with its 1d4 Wisdom damage incorporeal touch attack while being immune to the Gammaroid's attacks due to its incorporeality - and they're only CR 3!

There are plenty of ways for a high-level caster to do much worse ability damage than an Allip.