D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

My impression of 5e at this point is that it is doing good (two of the three stores I called on the 9th were sold out of their early release PHB's by 12pm though I was still able to get one from the third) and this is before the books have actually released. However there does seem to be some caution around buying sight unseen for some but I wonder if said caution is more of an after effect of the goodwill WotC squandered during it's 4e run...

As for a renaissance... I don't think it's impossible, and I think, just like with 3e, alot of players will be pulled back into the fold with 5e but it's just too early to say definitively. Personally I'm liking 5e so far but I also realize that may not be representative of a majority.
 
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For me, the question this raises isn't about "receptiveness", but rather - how important is it to the success of an edition of D&D that there not be a vocal group of RPGers actually decrying it?

Is our test for success that those who aren't playing about it aren't also whinging about it?

I like [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]'s response to this, but would add that I think you're parsing out one element of it. It isn't only about whether or not people are actively decrying the game, but how well people are receiving it as a whole, what the general perception is - and it is about perception (for better or worse). While it is too soon to tell whether 5E's reception will be as positive as 3E's was, it does seem that it isn't burdened by a lot of the negativity that plagued 4E right from the beginning.

In some ways 4E's run was rather tragic - it didn't really get the chance it deserved. I think a lot of this is on WotC, but some of it is excessive nerdrage. I mean let's be honest, as a demographic we are VERY tough to please and VERY easy to offend (I'm guessing someone out there was displeased and offended by my saying this! But please note that I am saying "we").

I think 4E "failed"--by this I mean wasn't adequately embraced by the community and had a run that was too short and bumpy to be considered a true success--not because it wasn't a good game in its own right, but for three main factors:
1. PR disasters - the anti-3.5 rollout, the online tools debacle, and just general poor communication
2. Style and Presentation - including anything from non-traditional aesthetics and art to too much white space in the books, to feeling "Warcrafty" to many
3. Mechanics - focus on tactical combat, grindiness, AEDU paradigm, etc.

The first two were problematic from the get-go -- and truly, before the books were even released. The third started early but grew. Again, it wasn't that it wasn't a good game, but that its tactical style of game play was too specific to be widely embraced, the AEDU paradigm too totalizing in terms of how it framed game experience in a certain way that many just never fully took to, or was conducive to what was perceived to be traditional D&D.

So my view is that 5E simply doesn't have anything like these issues. Yet. I'm not saying stuff won't arise, but I think if there was a big problem we'd know by now. This doesn't mean there won't be a 5E equivalent to grindiness--which if I remember correctly, took a few months to really reveal itself--some aspect of the game that a large chunk of folks find tedious or boring. Although hopefully with the simple core/modular options paradigm, WotC can craft up optional approaches that can suit just about any style of play.
 

Interestingly, I think your analysis of not having a second look is spot on in reaction to the playtest. It seems a lot of people were unimpressed with early renditions and just walked away. But many people seem to be having a second look now, which is no surprise. More than one reviewer indicated that they'd written it off early in the playtest process, but are impressed with the end result. And I think a similar process will occur if the game achieves a reasonable amount of success out the door. Somebody might pick it up in the store, flip through it, and think "ah, it's just a rehash of Xe", putting it down and walking away. But the fact is, if a few months down the road they see more and more groups choosing it, they'll likely give it another look.

We should keep in mind that D&D, far more than other RPGs, has a very large audience of casual players who don't follow the game on forums. I'm guessing more than half the people who end up buying 5E not only didn't participate in the playtest, but weren't even aware of it.

Mea culpa. The post was mistaken (I actually edited when I skimmed through - but not heavily enough). Even so WotC aren't trying to get in house talent for their adventures.

Their in-house talent has been busy designing and writing the game. WotC simply don't have enough in-house writers to write the core books and write the first adventures at the same time. I think we'll see more in-house adventures once the core books are released. Also, keep in mind that most of the work on Paizo's adventure paths is done by freelancers.
 

Not if the implemented "solution" was unsatisfactory...
Yes, even if the solution was deemed intolerable in spite of (or because of) solving the issue, going back to the original state and thus needing to try to solve the same problem again, is a step back. It may seem like a well advised backward step, but even a committed reactionary, pleased as he may be by the reversing of progress, must acknowledge that reversal.
 

Mea culpa. The post was mistaken (I actually edited when I skimmed through - but not heavily enough). Even so WotC aren't trying to get in house talent for their adventures.

And this is a bad thing, because?? Deservedly, or undeservedly the 4e era has also garnered WotC a reputation for writing bad adventures (which was probably amplified by their direct competition with Paizo). You want to see purposefully moth-balling D&D 5e... it would have been WotC putting out the first adventure for experienced players, all you would have heard were references to how bad their adventures were throughout the 4e era (and even before that). Very few people would have even given it a chance. Getting a company, and writers, known for their adventures being high quality was absolutely the best move WotC could have made in their current situation in order for the customers to give the adventure (and by extension 5e) an actual fighting chance. IMO, it was just smart business.
 

Yes, even if the solution was deemed intolerable in spite of (or because of) solving the issue, going back to the original state and thus needing to try to solve the same problem again, is a step back. It may seem like a well advised backward step, but even a committed reactionary, pleased as he may be by the reversing of progress, must acknowledge that reversal.

If the solution was intolerable then it wasn't a good solution... and solving the problem in a different way still isn't, by definition, a reversion... it's progress on a different path.

Edit: This is sort of like claiming because we had cars and boats to facilitate long distance travel... inventing the airplane was a backwards step...
 
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While it is too soon to tell whether 5E's reception will be as positive as 3E's was, it does seem that it isn't burdened by a lot of the negativity that plagued 4E right from the beginning.

In some ways 4E's run was rather tragic - it didn't really get the chance it deserved. I think a lot of this is on WotC, but some of it is excessive nerdrage. I mean let's be honest, as a demographic we are VERY tough to please and VERY easy to offend (I'm guessing someone out there was displeased and offended by my saying this! But please note that I am saying "we").
You're really talking about a specific segment. There's a segment of the fanbase that enthusiastically adopts every new edition without question - they're the ones generating the most glowing, least critical positives, right now, just like they did early in the release of 4e and 3e.

There's a segment of the fanbase that gives each edition a fair chance and judges it on it's merits (I'm guessing, a pretty darn small segment).

There's a segment that views each new edition with suspicion, but eventually comes around.

There's a segment that cleaves off and sticks with the last edition, each time a new edition comes out.

And, yes, there's generally been a segment that might nerdrage at the slightest provocation.


I think 4E "failed"--by this I mean wasn't adequately embraced by the community and had a run that was too short and bumpy to be considered a true success--not because it wasn't a good game in its own right, but for three main factors:
1. PR disasters - the anti-3.5 rollout, the online tools debacle, and just general poor communication
2. Style and Presentation - including anything from non-traditional aesthetics and art to too much white space in the books, to feeling "Warcrafty" to many
3. Mechanics - focus on tactical combat, grindiness, AEDU paradigm, etc.
Not so much, really. Those were mostly things that edition warriors latched onto, but they were either nonsense or would require a much thinner skin than the fanbase has displayed before or since, and didn't contribute to the short run so much as create an opportunity for Paizo to clone 3.5 with Pathfinder. But you did catch a real issue in that list of edition-war-era talking points:

The failure of the on-lines tools was not just a PR embarrassment, but a fatal blow to the business model of D&D at the time - DDI was supposed to generate an unprecedented, MMO-like revenue stream that would push D&D to revenue levels not just many times what it had done before, but several times those of the whole TTRPG industry, in total. When it failed in development, the D&D line was essentially (pi) doomed. Fortunately, Hasbro changed policy and failure to achieve 'core brand' status didn't result in the line being shelved, just re-booted yet again. Now, happily, Hasbro considers all of WotC (stodgy, low-revenue D&D, and high-flying CCGs) one unit, and is delighted with it's overall performance, so 5e is assured a normal run, even if it were to deliver only a fraction of the revenue of past eds, or fail to so much as un-seat Pathfinder. Unless Hasbro has another change of leadership/philosophy, or CCGs suddenly tank.

So my view is that 5E simply doesn't have anything like these issues.
Here, we're in complete agreement. Mechanical improvements and innovations have been rolled back, and any new ones have been /very/ cautious and measured in implementation, and care has been taken not to ruffle the feathers of those who reacted so badly. More importantly, D&D no longer faces any meaningful business challenges. WotC can drop it a few resources to keep it going while basking in the glow of it's CCGs' successes. There's no fight for survival, no need to prove itself as a viable IP - basically a free ride at this point. Which is great...

Yet. I'm not saying stuff won't arise, but I think if there was a big problem we'd know by now.This doesn't mean there won't be a 5E equivalent to grindiness--which if I remember correctly, took a few months to really reveal itself--some aspect of the game that a large chunk of folks find tedious or boring.
Seems unlikely that specific problem will show up. The monsters I've seen in the pdfs, so far, have been only a little tougher - and a little more harder-hitting - relative to the lightning-fast playtest. 5e will likely prove a game heavily weighted towards roll-overs and TPKs, but artful DMs will be able to walk the tightrope in between. Worst case, as it succumbs to the inevitable power creep, it may turn into "rocket tag." The only danger of play really slowing down lies in the complex rules for casting, and comparatively vague rules in general. Rules arguments, if the DM isn't decisive and firm (to put it politely), could eat into session time far worse than grinding through a solo's last 100 hps. That and the usual suspects of playability outside 'sweet spot' levels, inaccessibility to new players, class & encounter imbalances, and so forth.

Really, the same mechanical and play problems D&D had over most of it's history - and never enough to stop it from succeeding on the basis of name-recognition and loyalty.
 
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If the solution was intolerable then it wasn't a good solution... and solving the problem in a different way still isn't, by definition, a reversion... it's progress on a different path.
Tolerance is a quality of the one choosing to be tolerant or intolerant. A solution that eliminates a problem is a valid solution, and reversing such a solution is a step backwards. Implementing an alternate solution would be a step forward - if such is actually done, and if it works as well or better than the solution that was reversed. Neither is clearly the case for 5e, as yet.

Problems of class balance, for instance. 5e rolled back the solutions that demonstrably worked, returning to the failed model of classes with widely varied resource distributions and protected 'niche' functions.

Edit: This is sort of like claiming because we had cars and boats to facilitate long distance travel... inventing the airplane was a backwards step...
Not at all. If 'inventing the airplane' had required returning to horse & buggy, first, you'd have a valid analogy. Since it instead built upon the same internal-combustion technology as automobiles, it is, rather, an example of progress.
 
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Tolerance is a quality of the one choosing to be tolerant or intolerant. A solution that eliminates a problem is a valid solution, and reversing such a solution is a step backwards. Implementing an alternate solution would be a step forward - if such is actually done, and if it works as well or better than the solution that was reversed. Neither is clearly the case for 5e, as yet.

Problems of class balance, including the 5MWD and LFQW (for two of many examples with ready acronyms), for instance. 5e rolled back the solutions that delivered those results, and has so far offered no potential solution for the 5MWD (beyond 'don't do that') and it remains to be seen if neo-Vancian + 2e-level multi-attack DPR really addresses LFQW (neo-Vancian coupled spell scaling to slots instead of caster level and reduced slots, but also coupled saves to proficiency).

So you've playtested the final game from level 1 to 20... with the DMG options... right?? Just curious.

Not at all. If 'inventing the airplane' had required returning to horse & buggy, first, you'd have a valid analogy. Since it instead built upon the same internal-combustion technology as automobiles, it is, rather, an example of progress.

And your proof that we've reverted is?? I'm seriously curious since only one core book has been released and not even to the general public...


EDIT: I mean it's too early to declare a new renaissance... but it's not too early to definitively declare what the game can or cannot do... even missing two of the core rulebooks... hmm, ok.
 
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I think the best chance D&D has of a creative movie is something epic, a Big Story. What comes most immediately to mind is the Dragonlance Chronicles. Another could be Icewind Dale (I hate to say it, but if done well Drizzt could make an impact on the big screen). Or perhaps something new.

This post is admittedly meandering - I just had some thoughts that I am hoping will encourage conversation. Take whatever element of the above, or whatever comes to you, and run with it.

Give $100 million to at least a moderately well known director to make an Icewind Dale trilogy with Drizzt, and you'd have a blockbuster avalanche of new D&D fans starting at age 10+.

Relying on "books" to support the gaming model, as Mearls pointed out, does not work very well in the long run.
 

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